Rifle vs Revolver in .44 Mag..

[bradshaw]

Stevemb.... you'll have a time trying to beat Win 296/H110 in .44 mag----REVOLVER & RIFLE.
David Bradshaw

[stevemb]

Thank you Mr. Bradshaw. I've gone thru some pounds of H110/WW296 in the past in my SBH when in search of max velo's. Its been my understanding that IMR4227,like 2400, can often be throttled back a bit, but the 110/296 best kept at upper charge weights. I chose the IMR4227 at this time because it was available and to my knowledge more flexible. I haven'
t done a good job of making my thoughts clear I guess. I'm not looking to make my new to me M1894 into something more. Was just curious as to loading data that varied in the book, when going from rifle to pistol, this for the same round, the .44mag.. Then an allowance being made for older handguns, that maybe not an issue for newly made rifles ? I will probably settle on a hunting load that would still be safe in my SBH, circa @ '80. All info will be gladly read thru, wish we could sit around the fire at camp and share something cold. stevemb

[curmudgeon]

Where did you ever get the idea the factories started downloading ammo for ageing guns. Factories started listing and establishing pressure standards for peizo electric and strain gauge pressures and They started listing all three and it lead the uninitiated to believe a difference.
Since the establishment o CUP pressure standards which date back to the civil war. They were always listed as PSI. They were never PSI they were CUP. In the late 50's or thereabouts. Dr Brownell wrote his Doctoral thesis at the U. of Michigan on chamber pressures for modern firearms. He worked in conjunction with Detroit Testing Labs to establish his perameters.
When we started Super Vel. We had built similar equipment for our lab. I stated this in various gun magazine articles. At what point the major factories started using and changing their listings I do not remember. But they eventually found a correolation of some type between the three readings and arrived at a NEW SAAMI standard or standards.
All I am getting at is they cannot obsolete all loading manuals and say todays ammo is not safe in firearms built before 1955.
Things wre different for black powder and Damascus barrels.
There average handloader does not need to know all the interworkings of the firearms industry and unles he or she has a CE education would not understand anyway.
Just follow the loading manuals and forget about PET LOADS. Then if you want to know the velocity difference between revolver and carbine get a chronograph. FWIW dept.

[curmudgeon]

Dave Bradshaw : That's in powders available to the handloader. If you remember Olin made available for about a year the old 295 HP, then took it off the market. It was always available to the custom loader or small factory operation, providing they knew you had P & V equipment. We used at Super Vel the old H-110.
When Bruce ran out of the surplus stuff Olin made his H-110. Bruce then had them slow the burn rate 4 time over about a year or year and a half period. We found out thru P & V testing. When I questioned him he concurred stating that this was the most popular opowder for 410 gauge shotguns and only a handful of shooters had found this good for Magnum handgun loads. We at Super Vel switched back to the 295 HP, of which Olin had literally tons and was willing to sell us as soon as they sent someone by to check our ballistics lab. So yes, 296 is still probably th best ckhoice for which you stated. Again FWIW dept.

[stevemb]

I really don't know how to respond to this any more. My wife will tell you, do not read between the lines, because I don't put anything there. You probably have more experience than I, more knowledge, yes, but we are using different words and don't disagree, really. I never said anything about anything being obsolete. EVER. Looking at manuals a decade and more apart, I see a drop in in the loads for the .44mag.. I didn't do this. I just noticed it. I was curious as to how this applies to a newly manufactured rifle, since all my experience is with revolvers. That is all. I would like to sit down with ya over a beer or coffee, around a campfire and just talk. Too easy to get annoyed here, on the net. Ya know ? I'll say, in 30+ plus yrs I've never damaged a firearm with my handloading. Caution is always appreciated of course. There are many well known and respected names who have destroyed firearms who are still held in high regard. In low regard, stevemb

[Fowler]

Aug 27, 2013 12:04:53 GMT -5 stevemb said:

I really don't know how to respond to this any more. My wife will tell you, do not read between the lines, because I don't put anything there. You probably have more experience than I, more knowledge, yes, but we are using different words and don't disagree, really. I never said anything about anything being obsolete. EVER. Looking at manuals a decade and more apart, I see a drop in in the loads for the .44mag.. I didn't do this. I just noticed it. I was curious as to how this applies to a newly manufactured rifle, since all my experience is with revolvers. That is all. I would like to sit down with ya over a beer or coffee, around a campfire and just talk. Too easy to get annoyed here, on the net. Ya know ? I'll say, in 30+ plus yrs I've never damaged a firearm with my handloading. Caution is always appreciated of course. There are many well known and respected names who have destroyed firearms who are still held in high regard. In low regard, stevemb

I think it is generally accepted that many of the companies producing loading manuals have just become a bit more lawyered up and want to leave more safety margin that they used to. No matter what loads they list some wizbang will get to their listed max and just keep right on going until they do something stupid and then try and blame anyone they can.

I used to hot rod all of my rifles especially, at some point I figured out that a extra 50 or 100fps doesnt mean diddly in the feild and its not worth the risk or gun wear for the gain.

[bradshaw]

stevemb is correct some mag loads aren't as stiff as they once were. And Fowler is probably correct in lawyers wringing their hands. And Lee Jurras is correct as to changes in pressure measure technology; also infering the blending og propellants by major industry players. The old swaged gas check SWC bullets loaded by Remington and Winchester in .357 and .44 mag emphatically represented POWER, with excellent KILLING POWER. And, they tended to lead ferociously. The Old Gray Magnum ain't what it used to be. But we have great bullets and great powders which did not exist in my youth.
David Bradshaw

[stevemb]

I'm a 2nd shift guy, so now at 9am, just up'n on. Starting with a fresh read thru, I think my question has been answered. I ask questions on this web forum due to the depth of knowledge here vs. other sites where I'm more inclined to do more answering for others. On this site, on loads/loading, I don't believe I make it into the upper half of experience. Yesterday I come close to sliding right off the table and dropping into the foolish bucket. Ya'll stayed decent, thank you. Going forward load-wise for the Marlin I have a pound of IMR4227 and the next bullet to try, Sierra 240JHC. Wanted to try 240XTP's and the 265gr FP, that's now of the Interlock family, but none were available on a shelf around here. When I feel the bore is ready for it, I'll try some Ranch Dog 265-275gr bullets that can be had .432 or so. Lastly will come a bullet choice for cowboy shootin' and plinking. Gotta find some sling swivels. Will see if I can get outta here in time to drop into Gndr Mtn on the way to work. Going to camp for this holiday weekend and may get some shooting in. There are always more activities to do than time there. Tree stand maintenance and a float trip on the Clarion River below camp are already being mentioned. Stay safe folks. stevemb

[bradshaw]

stevemb.... the Sierra .44 240 JHC is one of the most accurate revolver bullets of all time. Seating it over 23/4227 should give you all you need in your Marlin. Tremendously consistent with CCI 350 primer from an old M-29 8-3/8" and an old brass grip Super Blackhawk, winning the marbles in 106-degree heat. Thing about competing under a blazing sun, the gun does not cool down between relays. To add one more grain----to 24/4227----produces NOTABLY MORE pressure at that temperature.

The long wheelbase Sierra 240 JHC occupies more boiler room than most 240 grain bullets. Same load under Hornady 240 XTP should produce lower load density.

The Hornady 265 FP is another accurate bullet, but I would seat it over 296/H110, rather than 4227. The H265 FP over 23.2/H110 is silhouette-accurate and should be fine in the lever action. Remember 4227 definitely peaks sooner and sharper than 296/H110 pushing a heavier bullet.
David Bradshaw

[stevemb]

Mr Bradshaw, you are not kidding about the JHC's being "long wheel-based" ! Yesterday after visiting here, went downstairs to the bench and after more page turning did drop a 23gr charge of imr4227 into a few cases. Then looked at fill level, then the JHC. Head scratched a bit, then dropped the charge to 22grs for a dozen load trial. These and some other odds and ends of factory loadings will go to camp Sat.. I still want to run another 1-200 jacketed thru it, but want to learn as I go too. For a hunting load, the Hornady 265gr FP was my first choice, but since picking up the Inter-lock designation, BIG price increase it seems. Well, the reality is it would probably not see more'n a few 100 over my remaining lifetime of hunting. My other option is to try the Ranch Dog cast bullet of similar weight once the bore gets broken in. Then its on to plinking/SASS loads. Gotta find some 200-205gr RNFP that go .432-3.. Gosh this is fun. stevemb

[COR]

and there's this guy you know that has a couple RanchDog Moulds for you to burn yourself on....

265GR GC Double....432

[stevemb]

OK, your on ! Give me some time to scrounge some lead. Is it still frowned upon to go to the mall and help myself to all the wheel weights just hanging around ? Did I type that out loud ? ooops. stevemb

[COR]

I'll even send the sizer dies...

Give me a holler when you're ready. I'll send them up

[stevemb]

Let me burn thru some more jacketed stuff first, then yeah, onto the cast bullets ! I've scrounged up enough jacketed already, and just have to find a time when I can keep annoyance levels down to acceptable levels here in the backyard range. I'll be fishing with my buddy here in a couple of hrs, going to Pymatuning to play on his pontoony boat. He's my friend with the casting experience. We'll discuss where to get lead,GC's,bait,beer and such. I will gladly take ya up with trying that Ranch Dog mold ! Gotta find a cowboy/plinker cast bullet too in Marlin friendly diameter. stevemb

[2sheriffs]

I bought 4 boxes of white box winchester 240 gr. JSP at WalMart. It said on the box MV 1180 fps. Is the regular winchester loaded to this velocity?