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Post by subsonic on Aug 3, 2013 14:43:41 GMT -5
I guess this leads to the question of why a smaller bore would require a gas check and a larger bore would not.
Guess I need to try some lighter gas checked stuff and some heavy plainbases to see if things prove out.
I have seen others produce some very fine groups from plain base bullets in a .357 or .38. But like I said, I just haven't worked with them as much as my bigger stuff, especially my .45 Colt.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2013 16:20:29 GMT -5
Some things I just don't understand. My 357s usually shoot 38-44 cast loads better than they do many 357 mag cast loads. My all-time best shooting 38 Spl load (Jeff Coopers) is a gross overload but it shoots beautifully out of anything I try it in. It's heavy enough that I won't even shoot it in 38 Spl guns, but reserve it for magnum guns only. This kind of mirrors what John mentioned earlier. I have developed plenty of 357 cast loads that work well for me, but 358429 seems to take a little more.... fussing.
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woody
.375 Atomic
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Post by woody on Aug 3, 2013 17:55:06 GMT -5
I load 14.5 grains of 4227 and 14.0 grains of 2400 with lyman 358429 bullets. I use those loads in the same gun you have with good results. It is not the most accurate load I have for the gun but plenty good for a close range deer load. I've also shot it out of my mountain gun with same results.
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chaz
.30 Stingray
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Post by chaz on Aug 12, 2013 16:46:23 GMT -5
Dug out my Lyman Cast bullet manual from 1973. Shows as follows for the 358429
Unique 5.5/1080 fps/ 21,600 CUP - 7.5/1340 fps/ 39,900 CUP (Unique has changed since then, start more towards the low side) NO H110 loads in there
Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook 2004 No Unique H110 14.4/1172 fps/ 33,500 CUP - 15/1285 fps/ 40,900 CUP
Seems that Unique load from 1973 might be a bit hot, just sayin...
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mattri
.240 Incinerator
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Post by mattri on Aug 12, 2013 18:30:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the information, I'll look back at what I've been shooting but iirc it was right in that range.
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Post by sixshot on Aug 12, 2013 19:17:23 GMT -5
I shoot the Keith #358429 a great deal in 38 special cases, it has always shot good but never great, the old Ray Thompson #358156 GC has always out shot it, always. If you are stuck on the Keith slug it will work at reasonable handgun ranges, just don't try to make it work beyond reasonable.....what ever that is!
Dick
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Post by okiehoosier on Aug 14, 2013 6:32:13 GMT -5
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woody
.375 Atomic
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Post by woody on Aug 14, 2013 18:00:27 GMT -5
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Post by brushpopper on Aug 24, 2013 10:25:27 GMT -5
The 357 Magnum round out of a handgun, is the trailing edge of adequate for deer hunting. For a clean humane kill, there is no room for errors of any kind, in the firearm, the load, the shooter or the shot.
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Post by J. T. Ammons on Aug 24, 2013 11:16:17 GMT -5
I shoot the 173 with the 15.0 H110 load mentioned in many of the sources above, including the Lyman manual. It chronos about 1400 out of my old 3 screw 6.5" Blackhawk, a bit less out of my 4" GP100. Fantastic accuracy in both guns.
Obviously, work up judiciously...
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woody
.375 Atomic
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Post by woody on Aug 24, 2013 18:49:12 GMT -5
The 357 Magnum round out of a handgun, is the trailing edge of adequate for deer hunting. For a clean humane kill, there is no room for errors of any kind, in the firearm, the load, the shooter or the shot. A marginal shot with a .357 is the same as one with larger caliber. A paunch shot animal with any caliber is bad. If you put a .357 through the lungs/heart it's a very dead deer. One thing you do lose is range with the .357. I don't deer hunt with one exclusively but have shot enough deer with one to know it works. If I'm hunting with a rifle or shotgun a .357 is probably on my hip. That being said my main hunting guns are .44 and .45 cal. If I'm hunting with a pistol only. I do know two brothers that hunt only with .357's for the last 25 years and they kill a lot of deer. They just limit themselves to 50 yards which is average for my area being wooded and hilly.
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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 25, 2013 21:51:19 GMT -5
mattri,
I've been loading H110 for 190 grainers. The H110 works well. But, for lighter bullet like the 158 XTP I use (or did use) 2400. I'm just about out and like you I cannot find it at all. I have access to allot of H110 though. I would think the blue do would work well for you too. One thing that I've found though on the H110, at least for me, it like to be loaded on the hot side around max loads. At least in my guns both S&W 357 and Ruger 44mag & Ruger 45colt that is.
Some guns are just strange. My S&W 19 4" likes the 190 grainers better than my 686 6". I just wouldn't have guessed it. But, the 686 loves the hot loads of 158 XTP's.
Let us know what you come up with. The 173 Keith bullet seems like a good overall weight bullet for deer.
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mattri
.240 Incinerator
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Post by mattri on Sept 7, 2013 8:23:57 GMT -5
Thanks again for all the good replies and information.
At this point I'm throwing in the towel on the 173 Keiths. I think they're a great bullet and that they would be perfect for what I want to do but this gun just doesn't like them. I've loaded them with Unique, BlueDot, IMR4227, H110 and Bullseye, tried three different primers and varied the crimp- nothing.
With the 158 XTPs and IMR4227 I can average about an inch at 25 yards, which for me is pretty good, and at 50 yards it still holds about 2-3". With the Keiths I'm lucky to get 3-4" at 25.
Would really like to find a bullet that I can cast for this gun- have heard good things about the 185 Beartooth bullets, thoughts?
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Post by brushpopper on Sept 7, 2013 12:23:43 GMT -5
I guess something is wrong me as I have been using plain base cast bullets in the 357 Magnum sixguns for many, many years with no leading issues. When I got started about 1960, the buzz was, you just had to use gas check bullets to avoid leading. I did try some lead factory loads and they did lead line the barrel of my Smith and Wesson 28.
I purchased a box of Markell "Golden Arrow" cast bullets which IIRC was the old 358477 and loaded them over 14/2400 and low and behold zero lead in the barrel. This encouraged me and I bought a SAECO/Cramer No. 12 and started to cast my own for the 357. Again, with a proper alloy and a good lube, there was no leading.
I could not understand why this was so, as everybody told me I needed a gas check bullets.
Well over 50 years later, and many thousand loads later, I still get no leading with plain base cast bullet in the 357 Magnum round.
Your desired bullet (358429) was designed for the 38 Special round and is too long for Smith and Wesson cylinder unless you seat the bullet over the top of the bullet shoulder. I fired 100 such loads, with the exact same bullet last week with zero leading in two different Smith and Wesson N frames. The load was 13.5/2400
With the longer cylinder in your Ruger, you should be able to seat the bullet in the crimp groove, but you will just have to try and see. I would start with 13/2400 and stop at 13.5.
I can see no reason why you should not take your handgun hunting with your bullet of choice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 13:54:42 GMT -5
mattri- are you casting your own, or are you buying the bullets? There may be a difference in there somewhere since there have been a few different "generations" of 357 Keiths. Perhaps that has some bearing here. I haven't had the accuracy with them I expected, but 3-4 inches at 25 yards suggests mechanical issues.
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