The Public Safety and Second Amendment Rights Prot

[Mark Terry]

www.toomey.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=965

This is purported to be 'the compromise'.

On the surface, this seems reasonable, or at least considerably more reasonable than what's gone before but there's a lot that could go wrong between here and law.

Can anyone please explain the "Gun show loophole" to me?

[Doc Barranti]

Apr 10, 2013 13:27:28 GMT -5 Mark Terry said:

Can anyone please explain the "Gun show loophole" to me?

I would if there was one... Every gun show I've ever been to, they do background checks...

[squawberryman]

In the state of Florida (and others I suppose) an individual (non FFL) is allowed to rent a table and do business as they please. They can buy or sell as an individual as many times as they'd like. It isn't a loophole by any means, just a way for an individual to do business that the libtards don't like so they give it an offensive name AKA asssault weapon, saturday night special, ad nauseum....

[jayhawker]

That "buy and sell as many times as they like" is the problem. The BATF will eventually stop you if you are "in the business" without a license. The "gray area" is how many gun sales per year before you are "in the business".

[Mountaineer]

I've bought a couple guns at gun shows over the years, always from FFL licensed dealers. In each case, the appropriate federal transfer forms were required, as well as the instant background check.

Here's what they're missing: gun shows are commercial operations, typically held at civic facilities, convention halls, national guard armories, etc. Exhibitors pay a fee for table space. I cannot think of a time when I saw a non-licensed gun seller. It wouldn't make sense for a private citizen to pay a table fee to sell a couple guns from a personal collection, unless one were trying to skirt the FFL dealer regulations, in itself a crime.

Granted, there may be times when locals bring their private weapons to shows hoping to trade or sell to another party. But not a lot. Not any more than it happens across back fences.

There ain't a gun show loophole. But they don't get it and I don't know how to get it to them.

Here's another question: in addition to the rush to close all the loopholes, the MSM and our politicians (even those ostensibly on our side) keep mentioning requiring background checks for internet purchases. Can somebody tell me how that works? How in the world do you go on the internet, buy a gun and have it sent to you somehow without going through an FFL, executing the required federal forms, and having the background check? Maybe I'm missing something, but I do not see that "loophole".

[subsonic]

Apr 10, 2013 21:25:56 GMT -5 jayhawker said:

That "buy and sell as many times as they like" is the problem. The BATF will eventually stop you if you are "in the business" without a license. The "gray area" is how many gun sales per year before you are "in the business".

+1

There was a guy that they just prosecuted after doing business for several years. He was caught because he wasn't claiming the income for the guns he sold at gunshows. He was only doing about $400,000 worth of guns a year without an FFL or conducting any background checks. I can imagine that the licensed dealers he was buying the guns from are not having a good time either.

[mtnbkr]

I cannot think of a time when I saw a non-licensed gun seller.

I have seen them. They're quite common at the big gun show in Chantilly, VA (The Nation's Gunshow).

That is the "loophole" the Left crows about. Is it a "loophole"? No, it isn't, but that's what they're referring to when they use the word.

Here's another question: in addition to the rush to close all the loopholes, the MSM and our politicians (even those ostensibly on our side) keep mentioning requiring background checks for internet purchases. Can somebody tell me how that works? How in the world do you go on the internet, buy a gun and have it sent to you somehow without going through an FFL, executing the required federal forms, and having the background check? Maybe I'm missing something, but I do not see that "loophole".

One method is where both parties are in the same state, but meet on an Internet board (we have www.vaguntrader for Virginia). That is not a loophole, it is completely legal under the current rules. Otherwise, I suspect the Left think we can order guns online and have them shipped to our homes sans check. Obviously that's not the case, but not everyone knows that. I've met people who didn't realize I can order guns online, but they still have to be shipped to an FFL for background check and transfer. That's an education problem.

Chris

[robl]

I'll wager not has murder and mayhem committed with any and all of these private, legal person to person sales will pale in comparison to what has already been done with Obambi's fast And Furious guns and the recent "theft" of 20,000 M-16s that are surely now in Al Qaeda's hands...

[Snyd]

Lots of private sellers/sales/trades at gunshows here. The so-called "gun show loophole" is nothing more than private citizens buying/selling/trading private property under the same roof at a venue where some of the proceeds of the table rentals go to a non-profit of some sort like the college Rifle Team or the local Territorial Guard.

[Mark Terry]

I have monitored the news reports to see how this morphs and, on the surface, it seems as it's the objective of the media and talking heads to convince the general non-shooting public that it is possible to buy guns including fully automatic, machine guns, rocket launchers, cases of 'cop killer bullets' etc. from GunBroker or Bud's or anywhere that has an internet connection and have them shipped directly to your home, no questions asked.

I keep asking the question and it appears that the "gun show loophole" is believed to be the loophole by which anyone, including FFLs, can sell guns at gun shows to anyone else without any sort of background check. I'm not at all sure that the average non-shooter recognizes or understands that there are Federally licensed firearm dealers in the first place or that they are regulated by a Federal government agency. I wonder why they would think it would be different for a FFL at a gun show but again, there is no clear picture of what they believe happens in a gun shop.

If we are to believe what's proposed, correct me if I'm wrong, the "new" law will be just like the one we have. Right?

I am highly suspicious about this simply because this administration has demonstrated an ability to promise one thing and deliver something different all the while swearing it was what they promised (and what the people wanted).

[Ken O'Neill]

Rob is right. Rob for President!

[hammerdown77]

Here's the issue I struggle with, and have a hard time justifying/defending to all but my more libertarian leaning friends.

Take someone who has been adjudicated mentally ill and a danger to society. They are not locked up, but they are not allowed to possess firearms. Or take a felon, out on parole, guilty of violent crimes.

Either one of those can walk in to many, many gunshows around the country and buy as many guns and ammo as they want from non-FFL sellers without a bit of grief. Quite honestly, other than price, when they can do that I don't know why they'd buy something out the back of a van in an alley and run the risk of getting busted in an ATF sting.

Now, it should be the responsibility of the seller at the gun show to ask for ID (to verify that the person is an in-state resident), and in all private sales you are not supposed to sell a gun to someone known to be prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. But how do you determine that at a gunshow without a background check? Or anywhere else for that matter?

I'm not advocating universal background checks, but again, these issues I'm describing are hard for me to argue to non-gun folks. Heck, even to a lot of pro-gun folks.

I'd love to hear yous guys' opinions on this.

[Mountaineer]

Purely based on my own observations, very few firearms are transferred to private citizens by non-FFL sellers at gun shows or elsewhere. I realize others may have differing opinions on this. Politicians and mainstream media have stated unequivocally that up to 40% of all firearms are transferred in that fashion. That has not been my experience, and I simply do not believe it.

Though I can offer no empirical data, I can recall no mass murders having been committed using a firearm acquired from a private party at a gun show.

[Snyd]

Apr 11, 2013 13:01:27 GMT -5 robl said:

I'll wager not has murder and mayhem committed with any and all of these private, legal person to person sales will pale in comparison to what has already been done with Obambi's fast And Furious guns and the recent "theft" of 20,000 M-16s that are surely now in Al Qaeda's hands...

Ya, not to mention the 20+ F16's and 100 Abram tanks and Billions to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egpyt.

[Snyd]

Apr 11, 2013 19:01:38 GMT -5 Mountaineer said:

Purely based on my own observations, very few firearms are transferred to private citizens by non-FFL sellers at gun shows or elsewhere. I realize others may have differing opinions on this. Politicians and mainstream media have stated unequivocally that up to 40% of all firearms are transferred in that fashion. That has not been my experience, and I simply do not believe it.

Though I can offer no empirical data, I can recall no mass murders having been committed using a firearm acquired from a private party at a gun show.

Now lets not confuse the issue with facts shall we.