|
Post by CraigC on Jan 21, 2013 22:42:27 GMT -5
The original gloss Colts with charcoal blue, were hand polished by select craftsmen. If you wish to pay for extra polishing there should be no reason it can not be as shiny as they were one hundred years ago. Due to the process itself, you cannot do a bright polish charcoal blue. The guns pictured above are as glossy as charcoal blue can be.
|
|
steve
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,505
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Jan 22, 2013 0:49:07 GMT -5
It's not that Charcoal blue isn't a polished finish, It's just not Colt Python Royal Blue.
It's a lot more polished than say a Smith model 28
On a custom gun, It's worth every penny in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by CraigC on Jan 22, 2013 10:18:59 GMT -5
I agree!
|
|
RpR
.30 Stingray
Posts: 196
|
Post by RpR on Jan 22, 2013 13:50:22 GMT -5
The original gloss Colts with charcoal blue, were hand polished by select craftsmen. If you wish to pay for extra polishing there should be no reason it can not be as shiny as they were one hundred years ago. Due to the process itself, you cannot do a bright polish charcoal blue. The guns pictured above are as glossy as charcoal blue can be. Not true, early 1911s were charcoal blued and Turnbull will still give you a gloss finish IF you want to pay for the polishing which can only be done by expert polishers. Carbonia Blue/Charcoal Blue: This finish is produced in a gas furnace which is exactly how it was done by the manufacturers like Colt, Winchester, Smith & Wesson, and almost all other arms makers before WW II. Carbonia blue is the Cadillac of finishes. It's glossy black in appearance which has a mirror depth to it (when the metal is polished to a high luster), and hard wearing. There are some different methods other shops may try to use and duplicate this finish, but for it to be a true Carbonia finish, it must be processed in a gas furnace retort. You may be thinking of rust blue which will not give a high-gloss finish though the Brits had a method that was more glossy than that used in the U.S.
|
|
|
Post by CraigC on Jan 22, 2013 16:23:01 GMT -5
I'm not talking about rust bluing, which can certainly have a bright polish. I'm talking about the finish on the sixguns pictured. It has nothing to do with "paying extra for polishing". The parts are fully polished. The process itself is different and due to removing the charcoal from the parts, you can't have a mirror polish. "Carbonia" and charcoal or "carbona" blue (as Turnbull does) are not the same thing or produced by the same process. Carbonia was S&W's proprietary method and was produced in a gas furnace with a propriety oil. Carbona is produced by packing the parts in charcoal, much like color case hardening. From the following thread: smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/96132-s-w-bluing-methods.html"Now here's one of the most mis-used, least-understood words in the entire bluing lexicon. 'Carbonia' Blue was a S&W proprietary method used in the period from before WWI thru the 1960's. It was also known as 'Smith & Wesson blue'. It was ONLY done by Smith. Never by Colt or any other manufacturer. Carbonia bluing resulted in that deep-black/glossy high-polish finish that Smith was noted for during the years they used it. It's similar to 'DuLite' and Charcoal bluing as far as the process goes, but certainly not the same. The Carbonia oil (a product of American Gas Furnace Co.) was used by many gun manufacturers in their own versions of 'DuLite' bluing, but the use of Carbonia oil does not make it 'Carbonia Blue' as only S&W did it. DuLite bluing, such as Colt did on their 1918/1919 military model 1911's is an industrial/utility finish. It was generally done over a fairly coarse-polished and/or sandblasted surface, and is a dullish, dark-grey or near-black color when used in that way. It was also far less durable than the S&W Carbonia Blue. And there's a funny story to go with the S&W Carbonia Blue. I'm telling it like I heard it, and I have no idea if it's true. The basis of S&W Carbonia Blue was an oil mixture (pine-tar based) made by the American Gas Furnace Company, and they supplied the oil in bulk to S&W, who mixed it with bone charcoal and other 'stuff' to make their own Carbonia product. Years ago, by the way, I contacted the American Gas company for info on the process, and they were kind enough to give me a list of the chemicals/ingredients used by Smith for the process, but it was just a list of chemicals, not a formula. So, here's the story: Apparently, only one old-timer at Smith knew the exact formula and he had it in a notebook which he kept. He eventually retired from Smith, and later died. His widow, so the story goes, contacted Smith and offered to sell them the formula in the notebook for $50k. I guess she knew that her husband had the only written copy of the secret formula. Well, Smith had gone into hot-bluing by then, and wasn't really interested in shelling out $50k to her for the Carbonia formula. So, she burned the notebook. And that was the end of Carbonia. The moral of the story is that all of these companies who now say they do 'Carbonia' bluing, or worse yet 'Colt Carbonia blue', are just you-know-what. Maybe they can do something that looks similar to S&W Carbonia Blue, but it ain't. And Carbonia blue is not Charcoal blue. It's very black the way Smith did it, not blue, and please, Colt never did it. Carbonia, when applied to a surface that is not expertly high-polished, results in just a so-so utility kind of blue. Time and temperature controls were critical in obtaining the exact color Smith desired. I've still got the list of ingredients, but there are numerous items on the list, and you'd need to combine them in the correct measures to get the actual S&W formula. I've combined most of the ingredients (or similar ones) in various percentages and at one time did quite a bit of R&D with it, but I never got too interested in pursuing it much further. It was hard enough to find any whale, let alone a sperm whale, so I never had any sperm-whale oil. That was just one ingredient I couldn't locate. American Gas Furnace Company doesn't make the stuff they supplied to Smith any more, so it's a futile pursuit as well as further proof that true Carbonia bluing no longer exists. However, the Carbonia look can be simulated or duplicated by other means."
|
|
|
Post by CraigC on Jan 22, 2013 16:24:02 GMT -5
I'd also suggest the Colt book by Haven & Belden for a complete description of Colt's pre-war bluing methods.
|
|
RpR
.30 Stingray
Posts: 196
|
Post by RpR on Jan 22, 2013 17:07:04 GMT -5
I'd also suggest the Colt book by Haven & Belden for a complete description of Colt's pre-war bluing methods. You tell the boys who still do it, it cannot be done, an they will tell you, you are wrong. I know fully S&W Carbonia is not the exact same process but comes from the same abstract basics.
|
|
|
Post by jayhawker on Jan 22, 2013 19:35:44 GMT -5
Note that charcoal blue is blue, not black.
|
|
|
Post by nolongcolt on Jan 22, 2013 21:29:20 GMT -5
I didnt know there would be so many opinions on what actually constituted charcoal bluing! Anyway I am still looking for a nice Uberti .45 Colt so colored, whatever its called. Bid on one on GB yesterday, but got outbid. Oh well, a few are around.
|
|
|
Post by CraigC on Jan 23, 2013 11:03:50 GMT -5
You tell the boys who still do it, it cannot be done, an they will tell you, you are wrong. And who would that be??? Colt hasn't done charcoal bluing since WWII and that is a fact. If you think the finish they put on their current SAA's or the Python is charcoal bluing then that is the source of our disagreement. It's not, it's modern hot salt. The finish on the above pictured sixguns IS what Colt was doing before WWII. I know fully S&W Carbonia is not the exact same process but comes from the same abstract basics. Not really. The color is not the same and neither is the process.
|
|
RpR
.30 Stingray
Posts: 196
|
Post by RpR on Jan 23, 2013 15:47:01 GMT -5
You tell the boys who still do it, it cannot be done, an they will tell you, you are wrong. And who would that be??? Colt hasn't done charcoal bluing since WWII and that is a fact. If you think the finish they put on their current SAA's or the Python is charcoal bluing then that is the source of our disagreement. It's not, it's modern hot salt. The finish on the above pictured sixguns IS what Colt was doing before WWII. I know fully S&W Carbonia is not the exact same process but comes from the same abstract basics. Not really. The color is not the same and neither is the process. Ron's Gun Shop and Turnbull both will do a high polish charcoal finish. The Colt finish is just a variation of the charcoal process. S&W cannot be exactly duplicated, except by shear chance, as the person who created the Carbonia process is dead and his widow burned the papers it was written down on.
|
|
|
Post by CraigC on Jan 23, 2013 16:15:06 GMT -5
The guns pictured have as high a polish as you will see with real charcoal blue.
S&W's carbonia is a different animal.
Unless you think you know better than Hamilton Bowen.
|
|
RpR
.30 Stingray
Posts: 196
|
Post by RpR on Jan 23, 2013 17:04:24 GMT -5
The guns pictured have as high a polish as you will see with real charcoal blue. S&W's carbonia is a different animal. Unless you think you know better than Hamilton Bowen. Your words; Due to the process itself, you cannot do a bright polish charcoal blue. What are you speaking of now?
|
|
|
Post by CraigC on Jan 23, 2013 17:08:26 GMT -5
I'm talking about all the guns finished in charcoal blue on the first page. That is as high a polish as can be done with charcoal bluing.
|
|
RpR
.30 Stingray
Posts: 196
|
Post by RpR on Jan 23, 2013 17:11:37 GMT -5
I'm talking about all the guns finished in charcoal blue on the first page. That is as high a polish as can be done with charcoal bluing. You are simply wrong. That firearm is a satin finish. Carbonia Blue/Charcoal Blue: This finish is produced in a gas furnace which is exactly how it was done by the manufacturers like Colt, Winchester, Smith & Wesson, and almost all other arms makers before WW II. Carbonia blue is the Cadillac of finishes. It's glossy black in appearance which has a mirror depth to it (when the metal is polished to a high luster), and hard wearing. There are some different methods other shops may try to use and duplicate this finish, but for it to be a true Carbonia finish, it must be processed in a gas furnace retort.
|
|