Hollow point or solid

[iwsbull]

I am curious of how many would run a soft alloy in hollow point for deer sized game in 44 caliber and up and at what velocity you would go to either a cup point or solid with the same soft (bhn 9 or 10) bullet powdercoated. From short barreled revolvers to a rifle in the same caliber and depending on caliber would you change the velocity or hold a firm line regardless.

[bigbore5]

For our smaller NC Piedmont deer I use an MP Keith HP cast 14-15bhn from the 357mag or 17-18bhn from the Maximum. They expand well, but will still exit.

I also use an MP 525gr hp cast 14bhn from the 500 Linebaugh at 1150fps from the BFR 5-1/2" for black bear. They are impressive. If it's big, it gets a solid.

I don't use a hunting rifle for American game of any sort anymore, but do keep in practice with the 475 Double and the 416 Rigby.

[contender]

I tend to use a HP bullet more often when deer are the preferred game. But,, I switch to a solid when bear hunting. Both cast from the same Miha Mold,, just switching the pins out to get HP's or solids. I've kinda liked the Penta HP's myself.

Can't help with a rifle compatible bullet. Don't use one.

[sixshot]

Well, since you said deer size game I would say I've come to prefer the Miha HP's, mostly with the 640 nose style. And since I've started powder coating several years ago I keep going softer & softer on my alloy because I'm still shooting through everything, both deer & antelope. Now I'm sitting at about 50/50 wheel weights & lead with maybe an ounce of linotype added to pick up a little tin & antimony to a full pot of alloy. That's not much but my guns shoot well at 1000-1100 fps & that's plenty for deer. If I use the 357 maximum I harden things up a bit because the velocity goes up quite a bit. I'm still using a HP, 180 gr Miha bullet & there's a GC on the bottom but it's still a pretty soft slug for that kind of horsepower. Last year it was the 194 gr Bradshaw/Martin bullet, deep seated at about 80/20 alloy, one shot, one kill....left handed.

Dick

[bradshaw]

Jul 25, 2023 18:55:40 GMT -5 iwsbull said:

I am curious of how many would run a soft alloy in hollow point for deer sized game in 44 caliber and up and at what velocity you would go to either a cup point or solid with the same soft (bhn 9 or 10) bullet powdercoated. From short barreled revolvers to a rifle in the same caliber and depending on caliber would you change the velocity or hold a firm line regardless.

*****

iwsbull.... talk about a loaded question! Answers to your phrasing could fill the New York Public Library.

In practical terms, the answer may be shortened. To start with your last sentence----hold all “44 caliber and up” guns & barrels to the same velocity is about impossible, and certainly not practical. To further extend unreasonable theory, we should hold all game to the same distance----to maintain same velocity!

Nevertheless, you introduce a few perfectly sensible criteria:
* soft bullet.
* powder coated.

If, by “deer sized game” we mean live weight 50 to 220 pounds, give or take, a good 240 to 280 SWC (semi wadcutter) @ 1,000 to 1,100 fps (feet per second) should fold the house of cards in play with a deflationary lung shot. Oblique angles all want to intersect critical vitals (lungs and/or heart). (Upper spinal shots and the proper brain shot are a vanity of special conditions, very risky for general hunting.)

SWC
An ideal revolver bullet configuration, with sustained accuracy far in excess of wadcutter or WFN (Wide Flat Nose).

SWC HP (Hollow Point)
Unnecessary, although very effective @ 800-900 fps. I’ve killed more revolver deer with JHP’s (Jacketed Hollow Point) than any other, and in jacketed prefer the HP to any other style. In cast, the HP works more predictably at lower V than a jacketed.

WC (Wadcutter)
Accuracy falloff after 50 yards may be severe. Penetration much more limited than SWC. Tumble risk considerable.

Cup Point (WC Cup Point)
Oxymoronic name. Highest immediate impact of all, capable of hideous flesh wound on game likely to escape over the next mountain or into nearby swamp. In .44, the Cup Point certainly could slam a deer with a broadside lung shot, while making all other presentations into a no-shoot.

LFN (Long Flat Nose) and WFN (Wide Flat Nose)
Perfectly good within accurate range, which must be tested for hunting.
David Bradshaw

[45MAN]

I HAD A 45 COLT LOAD WITH GC'ed CAST 325gr WFN's FOR MY FA CASULLS (WITH A 45 COLT CYLINDER) THAT WAS 1,600fps PLUS. I DEAD CNTERED A LARGE ELAND BULL THRU THE SHOULDERS AND THE BULLET EXITED. I GAVE UP ON THAT BULLET BECAUSE OUT OF EVERY 3 SHOT GROUP @ 100 METERS THERE WOULD BE 2 CLOSE TO EACH OTHER AND 1 WILD ASS FLYER. I HAD CORBON MAKE ME FLAT POINT PENETRATORS @ 305grs IN SIMILAR WFN CONFIGURATIONS AND THEY GROUPED FINE AT 100 METERS. DO NOT KNOW IF IT WAS THE 325gr WEIGHT and/or THE WFN and/or BEING CAST and/or WHAT THAT GAVE ME THE 1 IN 3 WILD ASS FLYER.

[iwsbull]

Jul 26, 2023 6:30:11 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

Jul 25, 2023 18:55:40 GMT -5 iwsbull said:

I am curious of how many would run a soft alloy in hollow point for deer sized game in 44 caliber and up and at what velocity you would go to either a cup point or solid with the same soft (bhn 9 or 10) bullet powdercoated. From short barreled revolvers to a rifle in the same caliber and depending on caliber would you change the velocity or hold a firm line regardless.

*****

iwsbull.... talk about a loaded question! Answers to your phrasing could fill the New York Public Library.

In practical terms, the answer may be shortened. To start with your last sentence----hold all “44 caliber and up” guns & barrels to the same velocity is about impossible, and certainly not practical. To further extend unreasonable theory, we should hold all game to the same distance----to maintain same velocity!

Nevertheless, you introduce a few perfectly sensible criteria:
* soft bullet.
* powder coated.

If, by “deer sized game” we mean live weight 50 to 220 pounds, give or take, a good 240 to 280 SWC (semi wadcutter) @ 1,000 to 1,100 fps (feet per second) should fold the house of cards in play with a deflationary lung shot. Oblique angles all want to intersect critical vitals (lungs and/or heart). (Upper spinal shots and the proper brain shot are a vanity of special conditions, very risky for general hunting.)

SWC
An ideal revolver bullet configuration, with sustained accuracy far in excess of wadcutter or WFN (Wide Flat Nose).

SWC HP (Hollow Point)
Unnecessary, although very effective @ 800-900 fps. I’ve killed more revolver deer with JHP’s (Jacketed Hollow Point) than any other, and in jacketed prefer the HP to any other style. In cast, the HP works more predictably at lower V than a jacketed.

WC (Wadcutter)
Accuracy falloff after 50 yards may be severe. Penetration much more limited than SWC. Tumble risk considerable.

Cup Point (WC Cup Point)
Oxymoronic name. Highest immediate impact of all, capable of hideous flesh wound on game likely to escape over the next mountain or into nearby swamp. In .44, the Cup Point certainly could slam a deer with a broadside lung shot, while making all other presentations into a no-shoot.

LFN (Long Flat Nose) and WFN (Wide Flat Nose)
Perfectly good within accurate range, which must be tested for hunting.
David Bradshaw

Sorry my lack of clarity with the written language is legendary, I didn’t mean kept to same velocity I meant over the spectrum of speed from short barreled revolvers to the velocity that you can achieve in a rifle of the same caliber.

[boolitdesigner]

Jul 25, 2023 18:55:40 GMT -5 iwsbull said:

I am curious of how many would run a soft alloy in hollow point for deer sized game in 44 caliber and up and at what velocity you would go to either a cup point or solid with the same soft (bhn 9 or 10) bullet powdercoated. From short barreled revolvers to a rifle in the same caliber and depending on caliber would you change the velocity or hold a firm line regardless.

Sorry my lack of clarity with the written language is legendary, I didn’t mean kept to same velocity I meant over the spectrum of speed from short barreled revolvers to the velocity that you can achieve in a rifle of the same caliber.




There are several ways to do that, however all but one are being ignored somewhat. The words "alloy and soft" don't really meen much. One can have entirely different results by heat treating a soft alloy. I'm especially guilty of this by running pistol bullets in large game capable rifles at the same alloy and hardness in rifles and handguns (same caliber/bullet, different cartridge. These range from 800 fps to 1200 fps in handguns to over 2,400 fps in rifles with different harnesses. I get the same results from either hardness. What they alloy is and how it is treated determine the results you get. I'm a BIG fan of hollow points.

[bigbore5]

I have to disagree with bradshaw about the cup points. I often use a cup point pin in the MP 359-640 mold. It's one of my most accurate bullets in the 357 maximum and has exited deer, sheep, and rams at between 75 and 170 yards. It doesn't expand nearly as much as the large hp up close, and about the same as the small hp pin at range.

[leftysixgun]

Bryan, I think you know what primary 45 bullets I shoot. This is just me, I dont get hung up on how hard or soft an alloy is. I think we are dong well to just find lead thses days. For deer and hogs around us, HPs are fine cast from straight wheel weights. The handguns and rifles that shoot the same bullet, I dont change anything in the alloy, thats my 45 colt Marlin and my 475 Linebaugh in Ruger No.1

[iwsbull]

I was just trying to add info, my main concern was at what point does a hp become more of a hindrance, say a 44 mag loaded with a max load of H110 might be alright in a revolver but when shot in a rifle will it hold together enough to get a pass through same with a 45 Colt. I think that once you step above those calibers that there would be enough mass left to take care of business regardless.

[boolitdesigner]

Jul 26, 2023 19:16:19 GMT -5 iwsbull said:

I was just trying to add info, my main concern was at what point does a hp become more of a hindrance, say a 44 mag loaded with a max load of H110 might be alright in a revolver but when shot in a rifle will it hold together enough to get a pass through same with a 45 Colt. I think that once you step above those calibers that there would be enough mass left to take care of business regardless.

There isn't enough difference there to make a difference. It's only when you have enough hydro-static pressure to disintegrate the lead bullet is when you see a big difference.... and hardly anybody here does that kind of thing.......

[x101airborne]

I may be the "dont know jack about s**t" around my place, but same load, same bullet, same game, only difference is pistol vs rifle or carbine; I look at bullet impact speed. The bullet is going to act the same at the same velocity. So if I am hunting with a revolver (and I usually use a hollow point for hunting), if my hardness works well at 50 yards out of my 7.5 inch revolver, then the same load would work well at 100 to 125 yards from a carbine and 150 to 175 from a rifle. These are just rough figures, it is up to you to test them but this is what I live by. A bullet from a specific load for a revolver shot in a 22 inch rifle at 30 yards with a known impact speed may absolutely blow up on a deer shoulder. Same bullet, same target but 100 yards or slightly more will still act like it was shot from a revolver at 50 yards. So you can load the same rounds in different weapons and provided they give acceptable accuracy, you "can" use them. You have to know your range and what velocity they are impacting at. Many online calculators can help you get close, but testing is key.

[northerngos]

Jul 26, 2023 15:13:37 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

I have to disagree with bradshaw about the cup points. I often use a cup point pin in the MP 359-640 mold. It's one of my most accurate bullets in the 357 maximum and has exited deer, sheep, and rams at between 75 and 170 yards. It doesn't expand nearly as much as the large hp up close, and about the same as the small hp pin at range.

When he says “wc cup point” is he referring to a cup point on a wad cutter (hence the “oxymoron” comment)?  I’ve been thinking of picking up that mp 359-650, glad to hear it’s a performer but definitely a profiled nose.

[northerngos]

Jul 26, 2023 18:47:31 GMT -5 leftysixgun said:

Bryan, I think you know what primary 45 bullets I shoot. This is just me, I dont get hung up on how hard or soft an alloy is. I think we are dong well to just find lead thses days. For deer and hogs around us, HPs are fine cast from straight wheel weights. The handguns and rifles that shoot the same bullet, I dont change anything in the alloy, thats my 45 colt Marlin and my 475 Linebaugh in Ruger No.1

At 12-1400fps are you water quenching pure wheel weight hollow points or air cooling?