Case - Bullet Adhesive

[x101airborne]

I was reading some older stuff of Mr. Bradshaw's and others and came across a tidbit of information and I was curious. 

Mr. Bradshaw and one other member spoke of some of the most accurate ammunition had a band of sealant in the cast mouth to "glue" the bullet in place once loaded. Mr. Bradshaw specifically mentions the Federal 44C loading and from 2012 another member mentions finding some new 454 Casull cases for sale that also had an adhesive band applied to them. 

I bought some nickel plated .451 hollow point bullets as components. In the discussion on them, another member called them "Black Talons" just with a different finish. The nickel coating is letting the bullets slip in the cylinder under recoil and in 2 shots ties up the weapon. 

1. Anyone's guess if this adhesive would help my issues?

2. Anyone know where to get something similar for me to try? Is there a common alternative to the commercial product? 

[magnumwheelman]

I’ve seen “sealant" several times, on the bullet / case mouth, & on primers, but can’t say I’ve run across anything advertised as “adhesive”

BTW… assume you are using a specific crimp tool??? I like either the Redding profile crimp, or the Lee Factory ( collet ) crimp die, for the boomers

I tied up my 454 Alaskan, when I 1st shot it… everyone was telling me I was going to whack myself in the head, shooting it, so I “over muscled it” when I first shot it…. I never had any issues after that, letting the revolver recoil arc, rather than stiff arming it...

Jumped bullets were factory ammo, not my handloads with crimpers listed above

[bradshaw]

Trey.... yes, Federal used an asphaltic sealant in case mouth to help hold bullet, My concern involved inaccuracy, and fouling.... neither if which occurred. in lieu of the asphaltic sealant, I’d try fingernail polish, preferably pigmented, on the theory the pigment may provide better adhesion. An opaque fingernail polish may have pigment, whereas a translucent polish may be colored with dye. White may hold the most pigment.

Since your .454 Casull brass grips copper jacketed bullets, but not the “nickel” plated, it looks like the "silver bullet” needs all the help it can get.
David Bradshaw

[handloadingnotes]

Jan 17, 2023 8:34:14 GMT -5 x101airborne said:

I bought some nickel plated .451 hollow point bullets as components. In the discussion on them, another member called them "Black Talons" just with a different finish. The nickel coating is letting the bullets slip in the cylinder under recoil and in 2 shots ties up the weapon. 

1. Anyone's guess if this adhesive would help my issues?

2. Anyone know where to get something similar for me to try? Is there a common alternative to the commercial product? 

Well, I think adhesive could help, but only two shots is tying up the weapon very fast… I don't know if I would be able to trust the bullet + gun combo as serious "life saving equipment" even with glue.

I don't have any experience using bullet glue it or know what to recommend.

When I had problems with Hornady LSWCHP bullets pulling in a lightweight snubnose 38spl+P and tying up the gun in 4 shots, I had success loading the rest of the bullets deep-seated in 357 Magnum cases (shot out of a heavier gun) with a lighter charge. Of course, I was only using them for target work at that point. I'm guessing you want that heavier charge so deep seating isn't an option for you.

Conventionally most resistance comes from neck tension. You could try also try an undersize neck sizing die to add more tension. Lee makes them for some calibers.

I don't know what case you're loading, but if it's 45 Colt then a 454 Casull die is supposed to provide more neck tension (but you'd have to measure a sized case to be sure it's really doing that…). A 45 ACP carbide die would probably do it, since the case is 0.007" smaller at the neck. Again, nominal dimensions, measuring the result is the real story. It's also possible that another brand of sizer or expander die is cut to different specs and leaves more tension. The Lee Universal expanding die is a wedge that only the flares the tip of the case mouth, and it probably leaves more neck tension than the "M type" Lyman or Redding die that puts a secondary expansion in the case — great for alignment and seating, but less tension.

If you have access to an ultrasonic cleaner, that will help. Bullets are noticeably harder to seat with all the carbon removed. Glue should hold better too. I'd imagine just scrubbing case necks with a brush and soap by hand would help. Cleaning the bullets might make a difference although I've never done it. There here could be residual lubricant left on them somehow.

Best of luck!

[x101airborne]

I am using virgin Starline 454 brass and Hornady 454 Casull dies with a Lee factory crimp die. I have tried deep seating over the leading edge of the full diameter of the bullet. No joy. I tried powder coating the bullets. Didn't stick. I have tried cutting a cannelure in the jacket to give the case something to grip onto. Nope on that one too.

[bigbrowndog]

Hornady dies are the only ones I’ve run in to that oversize the interior of the case and allows or doesn’t allow good grip of the bullet with the case walls. Try polishing your inside case sizer or flaring die, could be impossible if it’s anything like my die set, at which point. I simply delete that die and flare the mouth with a appropriate sized ball bearing, this leaves the case interior unsized and allows more grip to the bullet sides.

Trapr

[taffin]

1) you may need a die that puts a tighter grip on the bullet. 2) be careful with "glue" as it can raise pressures very quickly. 3) instead of opening the case mouth before seating the bullet just use a universal die to just "kiss" the case mouth enough to start seating the bullet.

[x101airborne]

Bigbrowndog, I will measure my flaring die as soon as I can.
Mr. Taffin, I am using my 454 more like a 45 Magnum that cant go into a 45 Colt. I am barely getting into "start" data for actual 454 Casull loadings. Operating at 30K psi working up to the 60K psi is a long road for anyone not used to true Casull performance.

[cas]

I thought seriously about a "chemical crimp" way back when I was playing with 400+ grain bullets in the 50AE revolver and not having much luck keeping them in the case at the velocities I was at. My concern was repeatability, how to be sure it was close to the same every time. I decided not to try.

Made a semi stake crimp tool that solved the bullet pull but lead to other problems.

[edk]

Almost all 454/45 Colt dies size the snot out of the brass. It is likely the expander that is wreaking havoc on neck tension.

[bigbore5]

Try a collet crimp die. They'll make their own crimp groove.

[boolitdesigner]

The profile of the crimp placed has an effect as well as the expander shape and diameter. Take a look at Redding's profile crimp dies and measure your expander plug.

[x101airborne]

Thank all of you for helping. I am almost wondering if it might be wise to order a set of Redding dies if I can find them.

[magnumwheelman]

as I mentioned in my 1st post... the Redding profile crimp is particularly worth having

but as other have said, I'd pay attention to the size of your expander plug on the RCBS dies you have

[paul105]

Lee Juras cautioned (the curmudgeon used more forceful language) against experimenting in this area along the lines of what TAFFIN posted above.

I have some Speer primed nickel .454 cases with the asphalt adhesive in the necks. Drove me crazy until I realized it and went to a .44 powder die (expander in the Dillon).