akray
.30 Stingray
"Alaska is what the Wild West was"
Posts: 388
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Post by akray on Oct 31, 2022 21:39:09 GMT -5
My friend claims he talked to a gunsmith at Freedom Arms who told him that Freedom Arms doesn't make their own frames, but that they're made by a reputable American company(Ruger?). What's the real story?
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Odin
.327 Meteor
Posts: 971
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Post by Odin on Oct 31, 2022 22:26:39 GMT -5
Pine Tree Castings, which is a Ruger subsidiary. They cast frames for Ruger, Freedom Arms and the Magnum Research BFR.
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Post by cddogfan1 on Nov 1, 2022 8:21:11 GMT -5
At one time Pine Tree also did golf clubs for some of the major manufactures. Is that still true too.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,559
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Post by Fowler on Nov 1, 2022 8:28:06 GMT -5
What FA and others get is a rough casting that still requires a lot of machining to make into the frame you see. Its not a 80% finished part that gets a little clean up but every surface is machined and squared up to perfection...
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sj6g
.30 Stingray
Posts: 114
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Post by sj6g on Nov 1, 2022 8:51:38 GMT -5
At one time Pine Tree also did golf clubs for some of the major manufactures. Is that still true too. Very much so. Their casting business is a massive operation. |
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Post by bradshaw on Nov 1, 2022 9:52:05 GMT -5
Noticed, on a walk-through with Bill Ruger, Jr., before he retired in 2006, cleaned frame castings for the Freedom Arms Model 83 in wood boxes. Ruger cast these frames in 17-4ph stainless. As Fowler notes, all machining to be done by Freedom Arms. “we make about 2,000 a year,” said Bill, “which gives you an idea of their production."
Eric Unger managed the lost wax foundry known as Ruger’s Pine Tree Castings. (Lost wax is the ancient term for investment casting, invented in China 6,000 years ago.) Unger refined the casting of titanium which, among other things, brought major success with golf clubs. Unger conceived the Super Redhawk Alaskan as a cannon to pack on his mountain hikes. He made an Alaskan .454 Casull in titanium, but he and Bill, Jr., decided it would kill on both ends, so it didn’t see production.
Eric Unger retired a year or two after Bill, Jr. The Rugers all cashed out. Unger told me, once Bill, Jr., departed, a major move was made to curtail titanium production and cease as a vendor for other manufacturers, including gunmakers. Unger said he fought to preserve lucrative foundry business, which included engineering of parts to be supplied other manufacturers. Unger didn’t know whether his arguments to continue Ruger as a vendor for other manufacturers prevailed.
David Bradshaw
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sj6g
.30 Stingray
Posts: 114
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Post by sj6g on Nov 1, 2022 10:00:27 GMT -5
Having visited recently, it looks like Pine Tree has gone full circle to casting all kinds of stuff for other customers both in and out of the firearms industry.
Ruger's ability to massively scale manufacturing is fascinating.
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,108
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Post by edk on Nov 2, 2022 19:46:01 GMT -5
Worked for a different investment casting manufacturer in NH making receivers for Colt in the late 70's. Seems between Ruger, TC and my old firm a lot of that has gone on in NH over the years.
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blazinbill
.240 Incinerator
Long time shooter, but relatively new to singe actions.
Posts: 34 
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Post by blazinbill on Nov 4, 2022 5:54:54 GMT -5
Noticed, on a walk-through with Bill Ruger, Jr., before he retired in 2006, cleaned frame castings for the Freedom Arms Model 83 in wood boxes. Ruger cast these frames in 17-4ph stainless. As Fowler notes, all machining to be done by Freedom Arms. “we make about 2,000 a year,” said Bill, “which gives you an idea of their production." Eric Unger managed the lost wax foundry known as Ruger’s Pine Tree Castings. (Lost wax is the ancient term for investment casting, invented in China 6,000 years ago.) Unger refined the casting of titanium which, among other things, brought major success with golf clubs. Unger conceived the Super Redhawk Alaskan as a cannon to pack on his mountain hikes. He made an Alaskan .454 Casull in titanium, but he and Bill, Jr., decided it would kill on both ends, so it didn’t see production. Eric Unger retired a year or two after Bill, Jr. The Rugers all cashed out. Unger told me, once Bill, Jr., departed, a major move was made to curtail titanium production and cease as a vendor for other manufacturers, including gunmakers. Unger said he fought to preserve lucrative foundry business, which included engineering of parts to be supplied other manufacturers. Unger didn’t know whether his arguments to continue Ruger as a vendor for other manufacturers prevailed. David Bradshaw 2,000 a year! Wow, I would have never guessed FA's annual production to be that high. Makes me wonder what their profit margin is on each one... |
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Post by rjm52 on Nov 4, 2022 7:08:41 GMT -5
Not sure if it is totally valid or not, but if one looks at the FA serial numbers, there is a different letter prefix for each model and caliber.
Over on GunsInternational is a recently made 97 in .41 Magnum with a serial number of R0603...so only 603 97s in .41 up to that point. I have two .41/97s and the serial number on one of them is down in the 100s...
An identical .44 Special from the same seller is T0730, another T0728 and T0724... The .44 Special came out after the .41 Magnum in the 97 line and apparently is more popular than the .41...
A recent .45 Colt is P1810, .357 Magnum H0822, .22 G0693
So figuring there is another thousand or so .32 H&Rs, .327 Federals, .17s and .224-32s there are probably only 7k+- 97s ever made....that's in 25 years of production...less than 300 a year....that would be for the adjustable sight guns as the fixed sights have a different serial number prefix... .357 being "N", .45 Colt being "F".
...or am I way off base?
Bob
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Post by zeus on Nov 4, 2022 13:07:59 GMT -5
There was a time that they made that many annually but not anymore. They don’t make anywhere near 2000 a year these days. I’d say it’s less than 300 a year or so now days.
Just read estimate above, you’re pretty spot on I believe for now annually.
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 4, 2022 13:30:51 GMT -5
Might be some tricky times for upscale manufacturers in the near future too. Materials are sky high in price and higher living costs cuts into a lot of people's discretionary spending money.
As bad as a recession is on the economy, we need something to get us back to normal. Or, at least, closer to normal.
Gun prices, like everything else, are out of control...
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alamogunr
.30 Stingray
IGNORE PREVIOUS MESSAGE
Posts: 294
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Post by alamogunr on Nov 5, 2022 18:10:50 GMT -5
Not sure if it is totally valid or not, but if one looks at the FA serial numbers, there is a different letter prefix for each model and caliber. Over on GunsInternational is a recently made 97 in .41 Magnum with a serial number of R0603...so only 603 97s in .41 up to that point. I have two .41/97s and the serial number on one of them is down in the 100s... An identical .44 Special from the same seller is T0730, another T0728 and T0724... The .44 Special came out after the .41 Magnum in the 97 line and apparently is more popular than the .41... A recent .45 Colt is P1810, .357 Magnum H0822, .22 G0693 So figuring there is another thousand or so .32 H&Rs, .327 Federals, .17s and .224-32s there are probably only 7k+- 97s ever made....that's in 25 years of production...less than 300 a year....that would be for the adjustable sight guns as the fixed sights have a different serial number prefix... .357 being "N", .45 Colt being "F". ...or am I way off base? Bob I have no idea of the validity of the serial number chronology. I have a FA83 in .454 w/two extra cylinders that supposidly was built in 1991, ser# D13XXX and a FA97 in .44 Spec, probably built in 2021, ser#T69X. BTW, the 83 was fairly well used when I acquired it but still in very tight condition. |
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Post by bradshaw on Nov 5, 2022 19:21:45 GMT -5
"I have no idea of the validity of the serial number chronology. I have a FA83 in .454 w/two extra cylinders that supposidly was built in 1991, ser# D13XXX and a FA97 in .44 Spec, probably built in 2021, ser#T69X.
BTW, the 83 was fairly well used when I acquired it but still in very tight condition.”
----alamogunr
*****
My SWAG figures serial D13XXX indicates 13,000+ Model 83’s made up to that point. As for the alphabet soup caper, makers sometimes do this to keep output a mystery. As to your specimen, I prefer “well used” to badly used.
David Bradshaw
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Post by zeus on Nov 5, 2022 19:52:34 GMT -5
Each caliber has a different Letter in front of the serial. I’d have to look or ask if the letters carry over to be the same from 83 to 97 on same calibers if they are offered. D is 454, K is 475, etc. I’m not certain of sequencing. But I have a 475 that is K2xx.
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