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Post by parallaxbill on May 21, 2022 17:21:57 GMT -5
18.5 grs H110 with a 250 gr WFN in new Starline brass . I had no problem hitting a 14" gong at 75 yards with it but I have not chronographed it yet. I will use it on SC whitetail this season.
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fm027
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 73
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Post by fm027 on May 23, 2022 23:34:07 GMT -5
What twist rate did ruger use in old model 41mag barrels? I have a new model that won't shoot 250+ any good, but up to 240's very well... credit it to the twist, myself.
Never owned an old model so far
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rkrcpa
.30 Stingray
Posts: 259
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Post by rkrcpa on May 24, 2022 7:45:24 GMT -5
What twist rate did ruger use in old model 41mag barrels? I have a new model that won't shoot 250+ any good, but up to 240's very well... credit it to the twist, myself. Never owned an old model so far I don't think the twist rate is a problem. This group is a 250gr WFNGC at 25yds from my NM Bisley.  What load are you using? |
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Post by contender on May 24, 2022 8:24:12 GMT -5
I don't recall the twist rate in Ruger barrels,, but I do not think they changed it when they went from New Models from the Old Models. I think it's been the same since introduction.
Every gun has it's own personality. Some,, can shoot darn near any load quite well,, yet others,, can be pickier than a MIL at a wedding. It's all about finding what each gun likes.
Another thought. Many handloaders get into a rut so to speak. They get good results in general,, using certain components on a regular basis,, and think they have it all figured out. And when a new gun doesn't perform with "normal" loadings,, they blame the gun. Example; Many folks prefer one brand/type of primer over others. Yet,, when all the supplies dried up,, were forced to use whatever they could find. Sometimes they've found loads to be better,, & sometimes worse,, when switching just the primers. The rut of only using certain stuff can be at fault.
That's why to try & get the best accuracy,, a LOT of serious testing should be done.
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cmillard
.375 Atomic
MOLON LABE
Posts: 1,951
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Post by cmillard on May 24, 2022 17:18:07 GMT -5
I know the new models use a 1-20" twist....I think that has been standard on all Ruger .41s if not mistaken. My bisley accusport shoots 300 grain cast nicely out to 50 yards. Haven't tested them further out checking for stability issues.
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Post by mhblaw on May 24, 2022 20:43:06 GMT -5
Back in the 80’s, I shot IHMSA standing production with my NMBH, 6.5” barrel. Load was 20.3 grains 4227 behind a 220 gr. Sierra JFP. No problems with 200 meter rams.
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Post by rjm52 on May 29, 2022 6:21:30 GMT -5
If that is the original 250 LBT WFN-GC that Cast Performance casts, I use it with 20.0/H-110 which runs 1309 from a 4.25" FA 97...it is a handfull...but very accurate.
Bob
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Post by bradshaw on May 29, 2022 7:42:09 GMT -5
What twist rate did ruger use in old model 41mag barrels? I have a new model that won't shoot 250+ any good, but up to 240's very well... credit it to the twist, myself. Never owned an old model so far ***** Weight is just one aspect of identifying a bullet. Ten grains difference between two .41’s says nothing about the bullets, probably nothing about twist, either. If a 250 grain .41 isn’t stable from your revolver but a 240 is, the 240 rides the wire edge of stability, subject to disperse in a sharp wind, a slightly slower powder, rr failure to FOLLOW THROUGH on your squeeze. Standard twist for the .41 Remington Mag is 1:20”. Freedom Arms selected 1:14. Stability begins when a bullet is cast or swaged. Shape is less important that DYNAMIC BALANCE----spin balance----which for long range accuracy requires separation of COG (Center of Gravity) from COF (Center of Form). Your “250+” .41 bullet may lack the balance for accuracy, whereas your 240 may possess the dynamic balance to resist dispersion during flight over a long distance. 3-legged stool of accuracy1) Revolver. 2) Bullet (and by extension, load). 3) Shooter. David Bradshaw |
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fm027
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 73
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Post by fm027 on May 29, 2022 23:30:20 GMT -5
What twist rate did ruger use in old model 41mag barrels? I have a new model that won't shoot 250+ any good, but up to 240's very well... credit it to the twist, myself. Never owned an old model so far ***** Weight is just one aspect of identifying a bullet. Ten grains difference between two .41’s says nothing about the bullets, probably nothing about twist, either. If a 250 grain .41 isn’t stable from your revolver but a 240 is, the 240 rides the wire edge of stability, subject to disperse in a sharp wind, a slightly slower powder, rr failure to FOLLOW THROUGH on your squeeze. Standard twist for the .41 Remington Mag is 1:20”. Freedom Arms selected 1:14. Stability begins when a bullet is cast or swaged. Shape is less important that DYNAMIC BALANCE----spin balance----which for long range accuracy requires separation of COG (Center of Gravity) from COF (Center of Form). Your “250+” .41 bullet may lack the balance for accuracy, whereas your 240 may possess the dynamic balance to resist dispersion during flight over a long distance. 3-legged stool of accuracy1) Revolver. 2) Bullet (and by extension, load). 3) Shooter. David Bradshaw I wholeheartedly disagree with shooter & follow through having the slightest thing to do with a bullets stability. Absolutely zilch actually. From a ballistic standpoint, I would have thought you Bradshaw would have had a better response than that. Freedom arms uses that faster twist for good reason, as a 13 or 14 twist will stabilize the long bearing surfaced, heavy bullheaded bullets an outdoorsman desires for penetration qualities, PLUS make that bullet perform to potential under any application when spun like so. Every good rifleman chooses similarly with his barrels when choosing long sleek heavy for cailber bullets for long range work wanting peak retained downrange performance. Long bearing surfaced bullets (always) need to be spun properly or all a guys doing is huckin hail marys out there. A shooter can follow through and do what they want as biblically by the book as they like behind a handgun OR a rifle, but if your twist doesn't match your bullet profile, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. The loads for my new model 41mag using the 255 I shoot range from 900fps to 1300, and they'll stack rounds on top of one another through a proper 13 or 14 twist barrel. Factory Ruger or slower twisted customs for that matter keyhole the same loads & hit sideways, along with accuracy being gone to the dogs shooting them ... one point to take home over & above all the fancy talk and follow through work Bradshaw is doing, is to consider the role elevation and environmental conditions play when understanding what you guys' bullets and favorite tailored ammo's are doing. If someone here lives at one given elevation where a marginally stable bullet shoots fine, but travels to a vastly different elevation or environment on a once in a lifetime hunt per say, don't expect that barely stable load to perform as good there. I would bet buckets of money even Bradshaw's bullets would keyhole and hit paper sideways if the things are not spun right. Proper rifling twist rates are absolutely crucial to what a bullet can be expected to do downrange. I simply asked my earlier question thinking maybe Ruger originally also used a faster twist in their old models. For all I know maybe Keith & Jordan had explained these things to old Bill back in the time when men like them understood field realities vs just book and educational lecturing the way such things go on today... and I thought maybe the old models were different. |
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Post by bradshaw on May 30, 2022 8:07:56 GMT -5
fm027.... I’ve not shot with a man more accurate with the .41 Magnum than my late shooting partner Ed Verge. Verge lived with an 8-3/8” M-57 on his hip. One day he strode out to the 100 yard board, stood beside the target and signaled me to take a couple of shots. Offhand, naturally. Moment of hesitation and I complied.
We then swapped places. I stood beside the target as Ed drilled in a couple of .41’s. Checking our sights as we routinely did, but this was a new Verge twist on spotting.... stand beside your buddy’s target.
Ed Verge pretty much swore by the old, pre-XTP Hornady 210 JHP. The 1:20 twist held a tight CONE of DISPERSION on the Hornady out as far as you can see to make a shot. A faster twist would favor a longer bullet----providing the bullet is balanced.
BARREL TIME needs FOLLOW THROUGH
* Smith & Wesson performed tests with the Model 52 target auto in .38 Special. Pistol made for Bullseye competition, chambered for .38 Special Wadcutter. To fire a shot without follow through----captured on high speed film----shows the bullet to tip as it departs muzzle. FOLLOW THROUGH, the second half of TRIGGER SQUEEZE, involves holding the gun steady as the bullet accelerates down and exits the bore.
* This shooter boosted the IHMSA Revolver Aggregate Record with a Dan Wesson Arms M-40 .357 Maximum Vent 8-inch (M40 V8). My unlikely load: Speer .357 200 TMJ (Total Metal Jacket), 22/IMR 4198, Federal 205M primer, Federal 1.605” nickel case. Tremendous accuracy from IMR 4198, a long stick powder. However possessed of a L-O-N-G barrel time intolerant of any failure to follow through. Despite groups which fit a coffee cup @ 200 meters, it is a most squeeze-sensitive load, and I soon abandoned compressed IMR 4198 as to too-slow for the Maximum. That DWA had the original M40 1:14 twist. (DWA soon switched to 1:16; dropping at the end of production to a paltry 1:18-3/4. The 1:14 stabilized Hornady .358 200 grain Spire Points. The 1:16 stabilized Hornady .358 200 grain Round Nose, but not the same-weight Spire Point. The Speer .357 200 grain TMJ and Hornady .358 200RN shot tight from both twists.)
I don’t recall you or anyone else seeing my bullets keyhole on the not-so-subtle firing lines of IHMSA silhouette, where it’s advantageous to have a revolver and ammunition which group small as your hand from two football fields + two endzones. Stock revolver of course, and more witnesses than you may be comfortable with.
Keith and Jordan
Elmer Keith made his bones on accuracy. Bill Jordan made his bones on speed. Another shooting buddy, retired Border Patrolman and died-in-the-wool offhand IHMSA sixgun shooter, Major Golden of Tombstone, extolled Jordan’s brilliant speed and situational awareness, but not his long range finesse.
David Bradshaw
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Post by oddshooter on May 30, 2022 10:53:56 GMT -5
Interesting posts with opposing positions. Ouch!  Prescut |
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cmillard
.375 Atomic
MOLON LABE
Posts: 1,951
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Post by cmillard on May 30, 2022 13:34:11 GMT -5
Well said Bradshaw.
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Post by rjm52 on May 30, 2022 17:28:39 GMT -5
Have never had a problem with .41s from any make gun...as to "slow twist" Rugers...this is a 300 grain Penn Bullet of JD Jones SSK design...the one to he right was called right. Have a Mountain Mold 300 that does as well...   Have run the 255 Cast Performance bullet out to 780 yards from a 6" FA 83...this was at Mackay Sagebrush's camp in 2014... Made a bunch of hits on a 3x3' piece of plywood on the hill behind cabin... .41s just work... Bob |
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Post by contender on May 30, 2022 22:32:03 GMT -5
I took my "new to me" Ruger Redhawk in .41 magnum out today for the first time. I used 4 different loads I already had on hand,, just to see how it'd do. Now,, none of my .41's today were over 240 grns in weight,, yet all 4 performed quite well. Looking forward to load development for this one.
fm027,, I understand you have your opinions. Yet,, many of us around here know that David has the knowledge AND the witnesses to back up things when he speaks. I'll politely ask that you provide credentials of your long range handgun accuracy,, with witnesses,, and trophies to prove your expertise.
I'm NOT saying twist rate isn't important,, but David's information comes from many decades of serious long range handgunning. Handgunning is NOT the same as rifle shooting. His "3-legged stool of accuracy" is an excellent analogy of what's required for serious handgunning.
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Post by parallaxbill on Jun 1, 2022 12:48:49 GMT -5
Update on my bullets used.
They are an old box of Cast Performance Bullet Co. .41/250 WFNPB .410 dia.
I do not think they are available any more.
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