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Post by webber on Feb 12, 2020 8:26:42 GMT -5
On your recommendation of using deep seated bullets in the 44 Mag here is something you wrote on the M29 in your photo gallery. 4) S&W M29-2 4-inch with ammo used on goat at 3-inches and stainless cream separator at 200 yards. LOAD: Cast 240 SWC; 5.5 gr./HP-38; FC 150 primer; Federal .44 mag brass. Note bullet deep-seated to crimp above front band; COL=1.500" My question is, if one wanted to use the crimp groove how much more W231/HP38 would it take to duplicate the load you use (5.5 grains) seated deep? Since the bullet seated farther out, using the crimp groove, will give more powder space how much would you bump the charge weight up to compensate?
Thank you.
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 12, 2020 9:12:59 GMT -5
On your recommendation of using deep seated bullets in the 44 Mag here is something you wrote on the M29 in your photo gallery. 4) S&W M29-2 4-inch with ammo used on goat at 3-inches and stainless cream separator at 200 yards. LOAD: Cast 240 SWC; 5.5 gr./HP-38; FC 150 primer; Federal .44 mag brass. Note bullet deep-seated to crimp above front band; COL=1.500" My question is, if one wanted to use the crimp groove how much more W231/HP38 would it take to duplicate the load you use (5.5 grains) seated deep? Since the bullet seated farther out, using the crimp groove, will give more powder space how much would you bump the charge weight up to compensate? Thank you. ***** About 1 grain----Scientific Wild Ass Guess. Have deep seat cast (and swaged) for 57 years. Some folk like the look of a driving band in front of the mouth. I’m not impressed. Either way, the issue is not accuracy; the issue is efficiency. Small powder charge, big case. Even in .38 and .44 Special, deep seating over fast powder works great. * Need boiler room? Seat out. * Surplus boiler room? Deep Seat. I do not firewall fast powder and do not firewall medium powder. Trouble waits those who abuse a propellant’s character. Also, I’ve never experienced ignition problems under hard freezing with my loading methods. Excess air space is known to cause pressure excursions with some powders more than others. Unlike gasoline, smokeless powder contains enough oxygen it doesn’t have to look for it. Combustion capers happen when powder experiences sluggish ignition from too much dispersal. The blast of a primer blows loose powder around, which heats the powder----probably generating gas which itself acts as a BOOSTER----then ignites all of it simultaneously. The progressive aspect of progressive burning takes a shortcut. KA-BOOM. The effect becomes more pronounced with slow powders. Latent energy liberates faster than desired. The BULLET IS THE PISTON of a firearm. (The cartridge case is the head gasket.) If the bullet does not move, or doesn’t move fast enough, expanding gas starts to treat the gun itself a bullet. KA-BOOM. Aside from burning less powder to do the same thing, deep seating holds pressure ever-so-slightly rearward. The effect is reduced side blast and muzzle blast. David Bradshaw
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bamagreg
.327 Meteor
Woodstock, GA
Posts: 859
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Post by bamagreg on Feb 12, 2020 13:56:56 GMT -5
On your recommendation of using deep seated bullets in the 44 Mag here is something you wrote on the M29 in your photo gallery. 4) S&W M29-2 4-inch with ammo used on goat at 3-inches and stainless cream separator at 200 yards. LOAD: Cast 240 SWC; 5.5 gr./HP-38; FC 150 primer; Federal .44 mag brass. Note bullet deep-seated to crimp above front band; COL=1.500" My question is, if one wanted to use the crimp groove how much more W231/HP38 would it take to duplicate the load you use (5.5 grains) seated deep? Since the bullet seated farther out, using the crimp groove, will give more powder space how much would you bump the charge weight up to compensate? Thank you. ***** About 1 grain----Scientific Wild Ass Guess. Have deep seat cast (and swaged) for 57 years. Some folk like the look of a driving band in front of the mouth. I’m not impressed. Either way, the issue is not accuracy; the issue is efficiency. Small powder charge, big case. Even in .38 and .44 Special, deep seating over fast powder works great. * Need boiler room? Seat out. * Surplus boiler room? Deep Seat. I do not firewall fast powder and do not firewall medium powder. Trouble waits those who abuse a propellant’s character. Also, I’ve never experienced ignition problems under hard freezing with my loading methods. Excess air space is known to cause pressure excursions with some powders more than others. Unlike gasoline, smokeless powder contains enough oxygen it doesn’t have to look for it. Combustion capers happen when powder experiences sluggish ignition from too much dispersal. The blast of a primer blows loose powder around, which heats the powder----probably generating gas which itself acts as a BOOSTER----then ignites all of it simultaneously. The progressive aspect of progressive burning takes a shortcut. KA-BOOM. The effect becomes more pronounced with slow powders. Latent energy liberates faster than desired. The BULLET IS THE PISTON of a firearm. (The cartridge case is the head gasket.) If the bullet does not move, or doesn’t move fast enough, expanding gas starts to treat the gun itself a bullet. KA-BOOM. Aside from burning less powder to do the same thing, deep seating holds pressure ever-so-slightly rearward. The effect is reduced side blast and muzzle blast. David Bradshaw Could you please post a picture of your deep seated bullets? Not sure I understand how deep and where the crimp ends up. thanks.
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 12, 2020 15:27:55 GMT -5
bamagreg.... go Gallery section, look up 194 gr Bradshaw-Martin SWC GC. Photos on pages 1 & 5 show deep seating. Shoulder of front band countersinks below case mouth about .030-inch. Countersunk enough that roll crimp doesn’t deform bullet. There is no crimp groove. Designed this bullet primarily to POWDER COAT. Eventually we’ll try it lubed. So far I have yet to experience a flier out to 200 yards. David Bradshaw
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bamagreg
.327 Meteor
Woodstock, GA
Posts: 859
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Post by bamagreg on Feb 12, 2020 21:19:36 GMT -5
bamagreg.... go Gallery section, look up 194 gr Bradshaw-Martin SWC GC. Photos on pages 1 & 5 show deep seating. Shoulder of front band countersinks below case mouth about .030-inch. Countersunk enough that roll crimp doesn’t deform bullet. There is no crimp groove. Designed this bullet primarily to POWDER COAT. Eventually we’ll try it lubed. So far I have yet to experience a flier out to 200 yards. David Bradshaw Thank you sir, that makes it clear.
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Post by webber on Feb 13, 2020 8:40:33 GMT -5
I have another question Mr Bradshaw. Have you experimented with any other powders that give good results with deep seated bullets? 240 to 250 SWC's. What about Unique? What would you start with using deep seated bullets? Since Skelton used 7.5 grains in the 44 Special would that be a safe start load or maybe even lower in Magnum cases. The reason I asked is I like Unique and it does well in a wide variety of calibers and load levels if not pushed.
Thank you.
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 13, 2020 9:03:25 GMT -5
I have another question Mr Bradshaw. Have you experimented with any other powders that give good results with deep seated bullets? 240 to 250 SWC's. What about Unique? What would you start with using deep seated bullets? Since Skelton used 7.5 grains in the 44 Special would that be a safe start load or maybe even lower in Magnum cases. The reason I asked is I like Unique and it does well in a wide variety of calibers and load levels if not pushed. Thank you. ***** Sure. I’d transfer the Skeeter .44 Special into .44 Mag brass and deep seat the bullet. Unique is the coal furnace of medium powders. Among medium burn pistol powders, Hercules Unique and Alliant Unique fairly define term medium burn rate. I much prefer .44 Mag brass for light loads in .44 Mag chambers. Who knows how many such rounds I’ve fired in M-29’s, and the chambers are always clean to go full house. David Bradshaw
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Post by taffin on Feb 13, 2020 9:22:21 GMT -5
CHECK AMERICAN HANDGUNNER JUL/AUG 2011 "DEEP, CHEAP, AND ACCURATE"
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Post by savit260 on Feb 13, 2020 18:48:35 GMT -5
On your recommendation of using deep seated bullets in the 44 Mag here is something you wrote on the M29 in your photo gallery. 4) S&W M29-2 4-inch with ammo used on goat at 3-inches and stainless cream separator at 200 yards. LOAD: Cast 240 SWC; 5.5 gr./HP-38; FC 150 primer; Federal .44 mag brass. Note bullet deep-seated to crimp above front band; COL=1.500" My question is, if one wanted to use the crimp groove how much more W231/HP38 would it take to duplicate the load you use (5.5 grains) seated deep? Since the bullet seated farther out, using the crimp groove, will give more powder space how much would you bump the charge weight up to compensate? Thank you. Looking back through my notes I don't see a 44 magnum deep-seeded load with hp38 but I do have a couple with 41 magnum and that powder. In 41 magnum, looks like I back off 1 to 1.2 grains of hp38 for deep-seated loads. I'd have to say Mr. Bradshaw's educated guess is likely right on the money! The 7.5 grains of unique deep-seated in 44 mag brass is a very nice load although my notes suggest my Ruger 44 mags like 'em a little warmer. After reading Mr. Bradshaw's writings on deep seating a while back, I've tried it with a number of different calibers now (357,41 mag, 44 mag) with very good results. Most recently I've been trying out a few deep-seated loads with a 255swc and around 10 grains of Unique with a small rifle primer in 454 Casull brass for my new 2 1/2" Alaskan. Very pleased with the results so far. Give deep seating a try. I bet you'll like it!
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 14, 2020 7:51:31 GMT -5
savit260.... Hodgdon HP-38 is Olin ball propellant Winchester 231. 231/HP-38 double-base ball powder shares the fast burn zone of Bullseye, a single base flake powder. By "zone" I mean category. Bullseye and 231 are not interchangeable! Powder selection was limited when I started handloading. Three powders characterized three basic burn rates: * Fast----Hercules Bullseye. * Medium----Hercules Unique. * Slow----Hercules 2400.
With the profusion of powders available today, the three categories remain a useful guide. Terms FAST, MEDIUM, SLOW refer to velocity at acceptable pressure. Bullseye, Unique, and 2400 remain the benchmark for handgun powder burn rates. Three ball powders also describe burn rate categories: * Fast----Winchester 231/Hodgdon HP-38. * Medium----Hodgdon HS-6. * Slow----Winchester 296/Hodgdon H110.
“Acceptable pressure” is an abstraction. No matter how much we learn, ballistics shall forever contain an element of abstraction. Up to us to apply common sense.
Two HP-38 loads which deliver fine accuracy with cast, deep seated bullets * .44 Mag----240 SWC; 5.5/HP-38.
* .45 Colt----250/255 SWC; 6.7/HP-38. David Bradshaw
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Post by webber on Feb 14, 2020 11:35:31 GMT -5
It seems like Hodgdons CFE Pistol should be a good powder too. Has anyone tried it in 44 Special up to medium 44 Mag loads? What about Alliant PowerPistol?
Thank you.
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