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Post by bradshaw on Apr 30, 2019 14:52:00 GMT -5
CYLINDER FLOAT----the condition of a double action revolver unlocking under recoil. Described by this writer in 1978-79 wherein an S&W Model 29 .44 Magnum CYLINDER STOP drops or bounces out of the cylinder notch under recoil. In short, this is what I found and reported to the manufacturer:
M-29 at discharge
Firing pin drives primer & cartridge forward. Primer jets away from primer pocket. Powder ignition thrusts case rearward, starts bullet forward. If the revolver has ENDSHAKE, the cylinder bucks forward & back. Endshake bounces the CYLINDER STOP out of the STOP NOTCH, aided by inertia of the stop as the gun rises.
At the same time, inertia of the CYLINDER PIN holds it in place as revolver thrusts rearward. Cylinder pin may or may not come out of its hole in the STANDING BREECH. When the pin pulls out of the standing breech, forward position of cylinder pin unlocks EJECTOR ROD from locking lug under barrel.
The primer energizes the hammer to fly back.
Secondary Indent
Bullet torque rotates FRAME counter-clockwise----away from the right hand twist. In a mild case of cylinder float, the firing pin restrikes at 9 o’clock to first primer indent. The second indent may hit the primer or the case head or the extractor, or the next shell to the left. In a worst case the firing pin fires the cartridge in the adjacent chamber (to the left). This is a “double.” A secondary discharge can lead to a “triple,” or “quadruple,” etc. All by a single trigger pull.
I have watched an M-29 double more than once, and distiinctly remember seeing a prone shooter double at an IHMSA match in Jackson Center, Pennsylvania. I have seen it in offhand as well. I have not seen cylinder float in a .41 Mag, and certainly not in .357 Mag. I have heard of cylinder float and doubling in the .500 S&W Magnum. I experienced cylinder float on a DWA M44, which was addressed right away at the Monson MA factory. I have never seen cylinder float on a Ruger. The Redhawk/Super Redhawk cylinder latch is heavy duty and strongly sprung.
CYLINDER FLOAT most commonly expresses as a secondary indent the case just fired. Cocking the revolver produces in a DRY FIRE on the cartridge case just fired. S&W uses a lightly sprung cylinder stop. the stop oscillates on a pin, which allows fore-aft movement (necessary for engagement/re-engagement by trigger).
David Bradshaw
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Post by taffin on Apr 30, 2019 15:54:37 GMT -5
I had one .44 Magnum Smith & Wesson which would do this. It was one of the 10-5/8" Silhouette Models.
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Post by matt56 on May 1, 2019 5:54:30 GMT -5
My 29-3 would do this. I put all new factory springs in it but I haven’t shot it since to see if it is rectified.
It never did anything but unlock the cylinder, counter rotate, and the subsequent trigger pull would land on the previously fired cartridge.
The gun also had a bad trigger kickback sensation. Hard to explain, it was like the trigger was pushing back on your finger after firing. Needless to say I don’t have much desire to shoot it anymore
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Post by Ken O'Neill on May 1, 2019 6:08:47 GMT -5
The late 1980's "Endurance Package" upgrades, phased in over a couple of years, addressed this. Various internal parts that had previously had square edges, were rounded, as well as a number of other changes. I've slept since then, but I think those other changes included a modified cylinder stop and cylinder notches. The changes didn't come all at once, but were phased in. A gun with all changes is easily recognized by a top strap that has been D&T with 3 mounting holes under the rear sight channel, as well as a rounded front on the rear sight.
In my mind, there is no doubt that this cylinder float was the cause of the double shot mentioned in the recent thread, as well the one instance I personally observed years ago.
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Post by squigz on May 1, 2019 7:45:47 GMT -5
Thanks again for the conversation and help on trouble shooting my 29-2 David.
I'm running into this exact issue now and David had helped me sort through it to help me understand what was actually happening. My 29-2 hasn't been shot in many years and I wanted to get back into shooting it as it's a lot of fun. This exact instance was happening, unfortunately, but it will be rectified soon enough and it'll be back on the range all over again.
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Post by matt56 on May 1, 2019 9:23:19 GMT -5
The endurance upgrades started in the late 80s and continued into the early 90s. I’ve studied this subject a lot after my initial problem with my 29-3. The 29-4 started off with a hardened yoke. The 29-5 got a bolt block actuated by the hand which stopped the trigger kickback sensation and the possibly of the cylinder flying open. Finally longer cylinder stop notches we’re added last.
Right now I have sworn off 29-3s. 29-6s are my favorite and I have 3 of them. The rear sight assembly on a 29-5 is a weird one specific to that gun and can be nearly impossible to track down if needed.
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Post by bradshaw on May 1, 2019 10:51:40 GMT -5
The endurance upgrades started in the late 80s and continued into the early 90s. I’ve studied this subject a lot after my initial problem with my 29-3. The 29-4 started off with a hardened yoke. The 29-5 got a bolt block actuated by the hand which stopped the trigger kickback sensation and the possibly of the cylinder flying open. Finally longer cylinder stop notches we’re added last. Right now I have sworn off 29-3s. 29-6s are my favorite and I have 3 of them. The rear sight assembly on a 29-5 is a weird one specific to that gun and can be nearly impossible to track down if needed. ***** The Endurance Package was S&W’s endeavor the eliminate CYLINDER FLOAT in the Model 29, and strengthen the revolver without upsizing the frame. Some guns would exhibit cylinder float while other M-29's did not. The late 1970’s witnessed a long competitive seesaw between the M-29 and Super Blackhawk in IHMSA Silhouette. The Firing Line gave me the cache to discuss problems with manufacturers, including S&W, which the so-called “average” shooter might never experience. It took some rolling around in the dirt with S&W before I received acknowledgement of the condition. And when it came it came big, as S&W had fired 6-shots on one pull on their test range. I suspect a high speed camera was used to film the sequence< although not specifically of the 6-shots full auto. By the time of this acknowledgement, silhouetters were reporting other problems, to include the YOKE PIN pulling out under recoil, pivot pins swaged to the frame for hammer & trigger pins loosening, barrels crooked on the frame----things I never experienced with my M-29-2’s. A good M-29-2 is about as good as it gets. At the same time, machinations of owner Bangor-Punta resulted in some poor fit-ups and lousy bluing. Which is why it is important to judge a gun as an individual. You will not hear me say all Rugers, or all Smith & Wessons, are accuracy equals. When evaluating a revolver, I want to start with a bullet of proven accuracy. David Bradshaw |
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Post by jfs on May 1, 2019 13:21:18 GMT -5
Long time ago that happened to a 6 1/2" m-29 shooting factory ammo I had...
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shorty500
.327 Meteor
too many dirty harry movies created me!
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Post by shorty500 on May 1, 2019 18:36:41 GMT -5
On a related note I observed CYLINDER FLOAT take in a particular m629-1 multiple times in the hands of one shooter but using same ammo in the hands of the owner of said m629 it never happened. The issues can be very strange! My m29 Silhouette model has never floated at least not for me, but I am not the original owner so who knows what may have happened in past. I will state that though someone d&t the topstrap for scope mounting it shows zero signs of abuse
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shorty500
.327 Meteor
too many dirty harry movies created me!
Posts: 911
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Post by shorty500 on May 1, 2019 19:02:47 GMT -5
Like Bradshaw I have heard many stories that woul$ be either CYLINDER FLOAT or DOUBLING in the .500. As I said elsewhere I never have experienced either one and from day one I was shooting 545g pills. But lol there’s always some but in our experiences and chats- I did experience the same experience Brian Pierce reported in the original 8-3/8 model- once and only once at end of recoil cycle during SA fire I was looking at an almost cocked hammer from the gun shifting enough in recoil for me to release the trigger enough that it had reset to forward and under the heavy recoil( 545g@1450fps) I had the gun almost fired again DA
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Post by matt56 on May 1, 2019 21:08:03 GMT -5
It's interesting you say that it happened in a gun with one person shooting it but not another. I have a model 69 4.25" that I bought used with Hogue bantam grips. When I shot some full house 44 mag loads at the range one day I did experience the cylinder unlocking a counter rotating. Now this is a nearly new gun that was built in 2014, many many years after the original issue was discovered and rectified. I found when I switched the grips out for bigger 500 mag factory grips the gun never exhibited another issue. I fully believe it was me not controlling the recoil enough that caused the gun to malfunction.
My heavy 29-4 8 3/8s classic hunter with a M8 2x Leupold has never counter rotated either. The gun is very controllable with all the extra weight.
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Post by bradshaw on May 2, 2019 9:43:31 GMT -5
It's interesting you say that it happened in a gun with one person shooting it but not another. I have a model 69 4.25" that I bought used with Hogue bantam grips. When I shot some full house 44 mag loads at the range one day I did experience the cylinder unlocking a counter rotating. Now this is a nearly new gun that was built in 2014, many many years after the original issue was discovered and rectified. I found when I switched the grips out for bigger 500 mag factory grips the gun never exhibited another issue. I fully believe it was me not controlling the recoil enough that caused the gun to malfunction. My heavy 29-4 8 3/8s classic hunter with a M8 2x Leupold has never counter rotated either. The gun is very controllable with all the extra weight. ***** Matt.... you’re experience with cylinder float on a Model 69, to subdue the problem via a larger grip, illustrates the fine line between the S&W STOP doing its job or failing to hold cylinder under recoil. Cylinder Float is not an issue properly addressed by grip pressure or a different grip. Potential shouldn’t be that close. While you report an X-frame .500 S&W grip fixed your problem----and I assume your M-69 has “enhanced”: STOP NOTCHES----I’ll repeat a possible solution which I discussed with the factory 40 years ago: A “5-screw” S&W has 4 side plate screws, with a 5th screw at the front juncture of the TRIGGER GUARD. This 5th screw accesses a spring-loaded plunger which energizes the CYLINDER STOP. The screw was eliminated not long after the 4th side plate screw. A necessarily anemic STOP SPRING replaces the old arrangement. The newer stop spring (introduced around 1960?) fits cramped between STOP and FRAME. The spring has no guide to keep it straight. A bend or kink reduces strength of the little spring. Upon removing the sideplate, I have on numerous occasions encountered a kinked spring; improper disassembly of re-assembly will do it. Yet a perfectly aligned stop spring without a guide rod to hold it straight cannot exert pressure equal to the same spring supported. Meanwhile back in the jungle, good to hear the X-frame handle solved your problem. David Bradshaw |
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