S&W Hand Ejector .455 Webley tricky to reload; Dangerous?

[oddshooter]

Gentlemen,

I acquired a S&W Hand Ejector 2nd series .455 Webley that the cylinder had been recessed to allow 45 Colt to be used.  The 455 has a thin rim and the 45 Colt has a thick rim.  The cylinder would not close with the Colt 45 too thick rim hitting.  The recess allows both calibers to be shot as the 455 rim diameter is larger and will not go into the recess. ?

I hope I said that right.

The cylinder exits are .457.  That seems huge to me.  The bore does not take a .448 pin gauge; I haven't found what is normal?  I haven't slugged the barrel for groove size. 

I got some Starline .455 Webley brass and started the process of trying to build these short, fat rounds.
I decided to start with 250gr sized .454 bullets from Reed that were very soft, 10 BHN?   They are still over exit size by .003.  That's 3X what I normally prefer for any accuracy.  

I questioned if they should be larger, but I am concerned about how much swaging will done at the throat so I opted for the very soft bullets trying to give myself a little room?  Going from .454 bullet down to a .447 bore seems like a lot of swaging to fit that barrel?  Velocity might be in the 600's since I selected 231 as the lowest pressure powder and have started with a puny 3.25gr. ? I will be watching for squib with my trusty range rod.

All this led me into using a M die to build a nest for the oversize bullet.  I didn't want the bullet swaged down during seating which was happening.  I got a new oversized stem/plug from Lyman.

After using the M die, the .454 bullets fit beautifully without swaging.  Success?, No !  The stretching process of the M die requires some pushing on that stiff new .455 brass and that causes a bulge in the middle of the brass case.  I lubed them good and went slow and easy.  The round still fits the HE's cylinder without a problem, but I hate the look and think I'm overworking my brass as well.  Is there any reason to think Annealing will help?

I put ? question marks around topics I would really like feedback on.


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[boolitdesigner]

I've loaded for the .455 Webley for a long time. Most problems with loading them are solved by using a hollow base bullet (sizing to .455)........ specifically the RCBS special order for the 265 gr. hollow base (MP Molds produces the same bullet mold in 2 or 4 cavity versions). The Colt and S&W handguns are a little stronger than any of the Webley top break handguns. Try to keep to original ballistics on these. The original under 700 fps ballistics actually work pretty well. Lee produces a .455 Webley die set that works pretty well, but these can be cobbled up with 45 Colt dies except for crimping (shorten a 45 Colt seating die for that). You are using the Mk 2 case which is shorter than the original Mk 1 case (also known as the .455 Eley or .455 Colt). I prefer the longer case myself (I do not like the shorter brass).... which can be made from Starline 45 Special or from 45 Colt brass by thinning the rim from the front along with trimming the case.

Please post a picture of the back of the cylinder showing a good view of an empty chamber with 45 Colt brass and .455 brass seat on each side....... something doesn't seem right in your description. Try the right bullets... even the Mk 1 brass should load easily with them. 45 Colt expanders usually are a little long for that size case which is causing the bulge.

[oddshooter]

Thank you very much for that superb post. Great information !

You really got my questions and your options have set me on a new track.

I'm using the Lee .455 dies except for the Lyman M die to create the nest needed.
Interesting you mentioned the 45 Colt expander as I used it on just the first 1/8" of the case to make a start for the new larger M expander. That M expander just didn't want to start on the .455 brass. So I did the two stages. It was the M die causing the bulge.

The Reed bullets are sized .454 and very soft.  They are hollow base.  I was surprised at the new Starline .455 Webley brass as they had what looked like corrosion spots on about 10% of the cases.  Never seen that from Starline.

I will see if I can post some pics of that custom fix on the cylinder. I know that most of those cylinders were trimmed to use moon clips for the much higher pressure 45 ACP. The seller was specific about this Webley being customized for the 45 Colt.


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[taffin]

Jan 27, 2019 22:40:46 GMT -5 boolitdesigner said:

I've loaded for the .455 Webley for a long time. Most problems with loading them are solved by using a hollow base bullet (sizing to .455)........ specifically the RCBS special order for the 265 gr. hollow base (MP Molds produces the same bullet mold in 2 or 4 cavity versions). The Colt and S&W handguns are a little stronger than any of the Webley top break handguns. Try to keep to original ballistics on these. The original under 700 fps ballistics actually work pretty well. Lee produces a .455 Webley die set that works pretty well, but these can be cobbled up with 45 Colt dies except for crimping (shorten a 45 Colt seating die for that). You are using the Mk 2 case which is shorter than the original Mk 1 case (also known as the .455 Eley or .455 Colt). I prefer the longer case myself (I do not like the shorter brass).... which can be made from Starline 45 Special or from 45 Colt brass by thinning the rim from the front along with trimming the case.

Please post a picture of the back of the cylinder showing a good view of an empty chamber with 45 Colt brass and .455 brass seat on each side....... something doesn't seem right in your description. Try the right bullets... even the Mk 1 brass should load easily with them. 45 Colt expanders usually are a little long for that size case which is causing the bulge.

SEE MAY/JUN 2018 AMERICAN HANDGUNNER

[boolitdesigner]

I don't have that or know where I can view it.

[cas]

I had one years ago that had been rechambered to 45 colt. I just used Colt brass and loaded gentle for it. They got a little swelly, but worked just fine.



As you can see it had a rear sight added, which also gave cause to be gentle. Eventually sold to one of the Sixgunner.com long timers (don't know if he's here)

[ddixie884]

Star-Line really missed the boat on making the Mark II, instead of the Mark I. They could have been trimmed, easily. The Mark II can't be extended. A missed opportunity, sadly it will probably be the last.........

[oddshooter]

ddixie,


If you don't mind, school me on the Starline brass. Is the Mark II brass longer than the Mark I? How much?
Was it originally done for more powder in the case?

Not that I want more powder in the case.
I have some serious flame etching above my B/C gap and that makes me nervous about using anything with pressure. I believe my loads are right at minimums to start.

I really like this old Hand Ejector. I was totally shocked what a fine revolver Smith turned out at the start of the last century. Everything about it screams pride of product.

When I added in the .455 Webley and all the variations, history just crawls right out of the barrel.
My style! Old and Vintage.

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[boolitdesigner]

Is the Mark II brass longer than the Mark I? How much? Close to specs, the Mk1 is 0.86" and the Mk2 is 0.76"........ I cut mine to 0.88" and they have fit all Webleys tried. I have never seen a .455 chamber cut to Mk2 specs. I suspect it was done to save brass in a qartime situation.
Was it originally done for more powder in the case? Originally blackpowder loadings.

Not that I want more powder in the case. You don't, but increased bullet jump to throat doesn't help accuracy any.
I have some serious flame etching above my B/C gap and that makes me nervous about using anything with pressure. I believe my loads are right at minimums to start. Stick to book charge levels and velocity and you'll be fine.

I really like this old Hand Ejector. I was totally shocked what a fine revolver Smith turned out at the start of the last century. Everything about it screams pride of product. A lot better than what you see now on a lot of things......................




Star-Line really missed the boat on making the Mark II, instead of the Mark I. They could have been trimmed, easily. The Mark II can't be extended. A missed opportunity, sadly it will probably be the last.........  Now isn't that just the absolute truth!

[oddshooter]

Great post boolitdesigner .

Thanks for all that data and history lesson.

I'm such a newbie on this HE and the .455 Webley that I think ddixie went to message me, instead of a public reply, trying to save my fragile ego.

I like his comments and he was right on. So here is the ddixie text and my reply:
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Look closely at the depression on your top strap. These guns had a fouling cup machined in the strap above the barrel-cylinder gap it is an oblong, oval shaped depression in the underside of the top strap. There is little chance that there is flame cutting on your revolver, as there is little heat or high pressure gasses like in a .357 loaded with large charges of ball powder. I could be wrong, but you should brush this area and inspect it closely for wear...........
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Hey bud,

Much appreciated. I'm heading toward the vault now.

Back now and found exactly what you were talking about. I have never seen anything like that. It is too perfect to be flame cutting.
"oblong, oval shaped depression" is a great description.

I searched and found several discussions on that fouling cup. I read that it was used in black powder to stop fouling from tying up the cylinder.

Some days I really feel like a rookie. Can you tell this is my first HE?

Once again,
Much appreciated,

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