.45 Colt "Plus P" in New Vaquero and Flat Tops.

[ChiefTJS]

First off I am not advocating this or planning to do it or asking anyone to do it for fun or any silliness like that. I'm remembering when the smaller framed guns came in to being that we heard a lot of doom and gloom about folks being blown to bits and guns being injured in the process and I'm curious if anyone has seen any of it? I've seen no huge lawsuits, no children with eye patches or any internet photos of blown up "NEW" Vaqueros so have I been living under a rock or did it all amount to nothing? Are there folks out there shooting the heavies in the Flat Tops with no ill effects or are folks really smart enough not to try it?

[dougader]

I have never heard of anyone doing this or advocating it, even on an extremely limited basis.

I don't think you have to be smart to adhere to basic loading principles and avoid ruining a fine firearm or exposing yourself and others around you to the risk of flying shrapnel.

[Encore64]

Sept 9, 2018 8:22:03 GMT -5 dougader said:

I have never heard of anyone doing this or advocating it, even on an extremely limited basis.

I don't think you have to be smart to adhere to basic loading principles and avoid ruining a fine firearm or exposing yourself and others around you to the risk of flying shrapnel.

I agree completely. I keep my 45 Colts at or below 45 ACP pressures. My 44 Specials handle the 25,000 psi loads just fine.

HOWEVER, I have been advocating a five shot 45 Colt midframed flattop to Lipseys that would handle the 30,000 psi loads. Just Sayin...

[Cholla]

Sept 9, 2018 8:00:27 GMT -5 ChiefTJS said:

First off I am not advocating this or planning to do it or asking anyone to do it for fun or any silliness like that. I'm remembering when the smaller framed guns came in to being that we heard a lot of doom and gloom about folks being blown to bits and guns being injured in the process and I'm curious if anyone has seen any of it? I've seen no huge lawsuits, no children with eye patches or any internet photos of blown up "NEW" Vaqueros so have I been living under a rock or did it all amount to nothing? Are there folks out there shooting the heavies in the Flat Tops with no ill effects or are folks really smart enough not to try it?

Some things to consider:

The Ruger Flat Top Convertible 45 Colt comes with a 45 ACP cylinder. The 45 ACP is factory loaded to +P pressures of 23,000 psi, so it goes without saying that the revolvers are built to withstand those type pressures. So, is there any difference in a 45 ACP at 23,000 psi and a 45 Colt at 23,000 psi? I'd think not.

Brian Pearce has written columns and articles with loads for the New Vaquero in the 20,000-23,000 psi range. In Handloader #234 when he debuts the New Vaquero, he writes-

This raises the question: What loads are safe in the New Vaquero? The weak link, so to speak, is the cutout for the locking bolt notches that leaves between .030 to .035
inch actual chamber wall thickness which varied some from chamber to chamber). Considering the steels Ruger is currently using and with the above cylinder measurements, indications are that the gun is absolutely safe with loads that generate 22,000 to 24,000 psi. Certainly the gun will take even greater pressures than this, but with safety first priority, as well as longevity, I would advise against using loads that exceed that limit.

So if you define "+P" as 20,000 - 23,000 psi, then you're good to go with the revolvers in question. But if you define "+P" as higher pressures than this, then you'll have to use the larger frame Blackhawk.

[sagebrushburns]

Check a source like Ken Waters "Pet Loads" and he mentions three levels of loading the 45 Colt. Level 1 is about 13,000psi for older Colts. Level 2 is about 20,000psi which is for newer Colts and copies with better steel (this would also apply to Ruger New Vaqueros and flat tops), level 3 is 30,000psi plus which is only for large frame Rugers, etc.

[ChiefTJS]

Evidently my wordsmithing is a little sub par here. I'm well aware of the pressures involved and the Tier I,II & III loads and that no definition of "+P" exists for the .45Colt. My point of discussion was that when these smaller framed Rugers hit the market all we heard was that people would be putting "Ruger Only" loads in them and bad things would happen. Where are the bad things? I've not heard of even one blown up flat top or "New" Vaquero in .45Colt and was just wondering if it was actually happening with no discussion or whether the guns are strong enough to withstand the idiots.

[Encore64]

That's because most gunwriters are like most of our media in the USA. They underestimate the general public and try to think for us.

Clearly we aren't smart enough to figure this stuff out.

Im not sure how we ever make it with our Colts and other guns that require BP Pressure loads.

Whatever will we do?

[Joe S.]

Anytime loads for mid frame Rugers are brought up, someone (or some 20) is gonna interject not to use Ruger only loads. I think word is out enough that most people don't. That said, I’m sure there have been cases where someone wants to push the envelope and blew up their gun. I cant say I’ve ever seen it. But I’m sure they’re there.

[bigboredad]

My guess is there really are as many people running the top end Ruger only loads all the time. I'm sure somewhere someone has run a ruger only load in the smaller ruger just to see if he could do it then afterward he either knows it can be done on a limited basis or decided that it was way more load than he wanted to run on a regular basis. Just my wild ass guess

[flattopdan]

I’ve shot a good number if those Brian Pearce loads in my flat top without issue. I think they are safe.

[potatojudge]

I need to break out a mid frame and large frame to measure for myself where the mid-frame is smaller (aside from length). I've never looked close enough at frame thickness or cylinder diameter to question presumptions of strength.

Funny thing, Ruger could have made the mid-frame 45 Colt a 5 shot and avoided the need for clarification or potential liability. Also would have made a great basis for a semi-custom gun.

[z1r]

If you look at the chamber wall thickness of the mid-sized frames vs the large frame 45's, you'd think twice about pushing it. The chamber wall thickness is about .066" on the old model Vaquero. It is only about .030" on the new model; less than half as thick.

[edk]

Sept 25, 2018 14:06:03 GMT -5 potatojudge said:

Ruger could have made the mid-frame 45 Colt a 5 shot and avoided the need for clarification or potential liability.

Is this really an issue for Ruger? I don't know that Ruger has ever advocated use of other than SAAMI pressure ammunition in their firearms. That having been said, when I think of the pressured cited in various proof loads I wonder whether "Ruger-only"/30Kpsi would really blow up a mid-frame... probably for a certainty not good for it and I'm not planning to give it a go!

edit: Just acknowledging that the comment about the potential with a 5-shot platform is a good one.

[Encore64]

Sept 26, 2018 5:29:55 GMT -5 edk said:

Sept 25, 2018 14:06:03 GMT -5 potatojudge said:

Ruger could have made the mid-frame 45 Colt a 5 shot and avoided the need for clarification or potential liability.

Is this really an issue for Ruger? I don't know that Ruger has ever advocated use of other than SAAMI pressure ammunition in their firearms. That having been said, when I think of the pressured cited in various proof loads I wonder whether "Ruger-only"/30Kpsi would really blow up a mid-frame... probably for a certainty not good for it and I'm not planning to give it a go!

I don't think so. Ruger has never recommended the hotter loads. The 30,000 psi loads were dubbed "Ruger Only" and should have been "Blackhawk Only." I realize at the time it was the only option, but things change.

[lws]

Ruger states. No reloads in their firearms. That's all my Ruger guns have had.