NM blackhawk quality through the years.

[JDG]

Were the older NM blackhawks from the 70s and 80s of better quality than the current new models? Do they tend to suffer from undersized throats and over-tightened barrels you hear about on today's models?
I know Mr. Bradshaw has posted about stock silver hornpipe models from the era being competitive in IHMSA. Wondering if that level of accuracy was typically exclusive to silver hornpipe models.

[Paden]

Jan 10, 2018 16:41:32 GMT -5 JDG said:

Were the older NM blackhawks from the 70s and 80s of better quality than the current new models? Do they tend to suffer from undersized throats and over-tightened barrels you hear about on today's models?
I know Mr. Bradshaw has posted about stock silver hornpipe models from the era being competitive in IHMSA. Wondering if that level of accuracy was typically exclusive to silver hornpipe models.

Can't speak to the early ones, as all mine are more recent production .45 Colts. None of mine have had undersized throats.

[Encore64]

I just bought a NIB 45 Blackhawk 3-Screw. Throats are .450", so I'll have to say yes on this particular caliber.

Can't speak for other calibers, however.

[bullseye]

I've seen my fair share of Old Models of 41 caliber & above that have over tightened barrels & thread choke, that is most definitely not exclusive to NM Ruger's. Undersized throats are the result of dull reamers and guns made during a production period with new reamers will tend have larger cylinder throats.

[veeman]

I've had to ream the throats of all 4 of my 45's, new and old.

[bradshaw]

Jan 10, 2018 16:41:32 GMT -5 JDG said:

Were the older NM blackhawks from the 70s and 80s of better quality than the current new models? Do they tend to suffer from undersized throats and over-tightened barrels you hear about on today's models?
I know Mr. Bradshaw has posted about stock silver hornpipe models from the era being competitive in IHMSA. Wondering if that level of accuracy was typically exclusive to silver hornpipe models.

*****

jdg.... cannot measurably answer your question. However, a few observations:

1) Finish
S&W and Ruger maintained excellent polish and bluing up through the 1960’s.

2) Forcing Cone
Magnum revolvers grew in popularity during the 1960’s, 70’s, and into the 80’s. Competition in defensive pistolcraft and handgun silhouette imposed discipline on the power, the effect reaching far beyond the firing line. Specifically, IHMSA (International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association) competition generated widespread consumption of magnum ammunition heretofore known only to a small number of devotees. SPITTING became an issue. Both Smith & Wesson and Sturm, Ruger reacted by cutting the forcing cone deeper. The problem of spitting was not well thought out. The common 11-degree forcing cones used by S&W and Ruger was cut deeper. The ill-considered move to eliminate spitting failed to enforce good CHAMBER-to-BORE ALIGNMENT. It is this shooter’s impression that the deeper forcing cones encouraged sloppiness in holding alignment. A downward spiral. Lousy forcing cones are still found today.

3) Thread Timing
THREAD TIMING is the cutting of female and male threads to specifically index the parts when tightened. When a revolver barrel hand tightens to 10 or 12-degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center), wrench tightening to TDC secures the parts without crushing the bore at the junction of frame and barrel shoulder. Thread timing was understood and practiced until some time in the 1980’s or 90’s. I don’t know when the problem got out of hand. The ability of many S&Ws and Rugers to group 5x5 under 3-inches @ 100 yards, certainly under 6-inches @ 200 meters, helped to generate a generation of SIXGUN SHARPSHOOTERS.

Both Smith & Wesson and Ruger set back .44 Magnums of mine to eliminate barrel face erosion. The barrel shoulder perfectly lathe-turned in each instance to index the barrel without bore compression. I am not convinced that S&W and Ruger have restored thread timing to the production line.

4) Barrel-to-Frame Alignment
My first experience with a barrel screwed into the frame at an angle came in the 1980’s, a M-586 and M-686 brought me because their wasn’t enough windage adjustment to sight-in. Both 6” barrels were visibly cocked to the left. Apparently the problem continues, with an occasional example from both S&W and Ruger. Before the CNC era, I had neither seen nor heard of a cockeyed barrel. The problem has been a disease in rifle manufacture.

5) Chamber Exit Holes
The problem of loose chamber throats and tight chamber throats never poisoned the .357 and .44 magnums of Ruger and S&W. When comes to the .45 Colt, chamber exits---over size and undersize----became a disease. Today, it shows signs of healing.

I think the service departments at large manufacturers are larger now than in the old days.
David Bradshaw

[rugerguy]

I have my dads Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt caliber that he bought new in 1980 and it had no barrel constriction but it has .456 cylinder throats and chambers large enough that it will split factory loaded ammo.

My wife bought me a brand new Blackhawk in 45 Colt last March and it has no barrel constriction, .4515 cylinder throats and nice snug chambers. I have always heard that the older new models had undersize throats, but dads sure doesn't. I really like shooting pop's but I don't much anymore the way it split brass.

[bradshaw]

Jan 11, 2018 14:13:47 GMT -5 rugerguy said:

I have my dads Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt caliber that he bought new in 1980 and it had no barrel constriction but it has .456 cylinder throats and chambers large enough that it will split factory loaded ammo.

My wife bought me a brand new Blackhawk in 45 Colt last March and it has no barrel constriction, .4515 cylinder throats and nice snug chambers. I have always heard that the older new models had undersize throats, but dads sure doesn't. I really like shooting pop's but I don't much anymore the way it split brass.

*****

The early Ruger .45 Colt chamber exit (throat) followed Smith & Wesson, which followed Colt in reaming oversize throats. From there, Ruger reamed tight, as in .449-inch. And, more recently, closer to your .4515-inch. When you report, “... split factory loaded ammo,” I have no idea what you’re talking about. Your final sentence clears it up with, “... split brass.”

It would be helpful to know EXACTLY what ammo does this, and how the same ammo behaves in the Blackhawk your wife bought you. And whether fired brass will interchange between the two revolvers. Brass can split against an oversize chamber wall, but an oversize exit hole doesn’t split brass.

Brass from .45 ACP fired in the Ruger 03 Bisley Blackhawk slides easily into a Freedom Arms M83 .45 ACP cylinder.
David Bradshaw

[rugerguy]

Mr Bradshaw,

My dads 45 colt Blackhawk will split Remington and Winchester brass from just above the web area to about 1/4" below the case mouth. The fired brass will not interchange between the two guns, the fired cases (with no splits)from dads gun on average measure .483"-.485" and the fired cases from my new gun measure .476"-477" on average.

So I feel that chambers are indeed oversized in my dads gun as compared to my gun.

[2 Dogs]

Wow. In case some of your guys have missed it, I am set up to correct your undersized 45 Caliber cylinder throats.

I will measure your throats at no charge save return postage so if they are oversize you should be able to shoot a larger diameter bullet and have good results.

If your sixgun is splitting cases, you’re going to have to get a new cylinder. I suggest finding a 44 Magnum cylinder and setting the gun up with tight chambers.

All of this assumes no thread choke. That’s a separate problem but it can only be addressed after you fix your cylinder throats. PM me if I can lend a hand.

[JDG]

Jan 12, 2018 8:58:04 GMT -5 2 Dogs said:

Wow. In case some of your guys have missed it, I am set up to correct your undersized 45 Caliber cylinder throats.

I will measure your throats at no charge save return postage so if they are oversize you should be able to shoot a larger diameter bullet and have good results.

That's great

Thanks for the responses as well fellas.

[bradshaw]

"I know Mr. Bradshaw has posted about stock silver hornpipe models from the era being competitive in IHMSA. Wondering if that level of accuracy was typically exclusive to silver hornpipe models.”
----jdg

*****

The subject PRODUCTION revolver accuracy is vast. As IHMSA Silhouette took off in 1977[/u], the accuracy level of a top over-the-counter Ruger or Smith & Wesson equals and sometimes exceeds performance of these breeds today. At that level you just have to find out on the Firing Line. I am not a good enough shot to find out what’s going on @ 25 yards; came up with my own protocol to verify @ 100 and 200 meters (or yards). Smith & Wesson was owned by rapacious Bangor Punta, out to milk the old arms maker. Nevertheless, .357, .41, and .44 Mag revolvers of extreme accuracy came off the assembly line----along with crap. S&W performed beautiful drilling, reaming and broaching of their drop forged barrels; some, at least .44s, were honed, which fine cross-hatching is readily visible on the lands. S&W had yet to ruin forcing cones.

Ruger procured barrels from George Wilson, with .357 button rifled, and .44 broached. I think both .41 and .45 barrels were rifled with a broach. Variations in groove diameter, especially .44, meant firmer was better. A .428-inch groove is great; a .432” groove doesn't work with jacketed, nor for cast----unless you have a mold for fat bullets. A firm groove diameter alone doesn’t throw a bullet straight. A wavy bore & groove, or variable diameter won’t make it. Rugers forcing cones were mostly good. Rough rifling in a straight hole of firm diameter can be lapped with JB Bore Paste to greatly reduce fouling.

Both S&W and Ruger learned stainless, I would shoot either blue or stainless----as long as the example proved out on the Firing Line. Better examples of the N410S “Silhouette Super” (introduced 1979), and the KS411N "Silver Hornpipe” (introduced 1983), are capable of 5x5=5 to 6” @ 200 meters. Those were Southport guns, with broached George Wilson barrels. Today’s version has a hammer forged barrel made in the Newport shop. In every case, preparation is key to a properly rifled hole. To form the scope mounting rib, the Hunter Model SBH barrel has a drop forged barrel, with broached rifling.

Blackhawk .357 barrels from Southport are Wilson, button-rifled. The .357 Maximum has a buttoned Wilson barrel. I believe today’s .357s are hammered in Newport. Southport .45s are Wilson Broached, Newport .45s are hammered. I suspect the same is true for the Blackhawk .41 Mag.

I won’t repeat the Lousy Forcing Cone caper here. Suffice to say, by the mid-1980’s, both S&W and Ruger had fallen into the trap. In an inconsistent fashion, I should add, as proper forcing cones made it through production. Ruger and S&W both scuttled BARREL TIMING, this last horror following by an interval the gouge approach to cutting a forcing cone.

As the good broad-rifled barrels were----mind you, with proper forcing cone----capable of 5x5=2” @ 100 yards (almost always takes a scope), it took quite a bit of shooting to apply the same trust to a buttoned barrel. Accuracy comes down the work done to make a good hole BEFORE it is rifled. Oh yes, the broach or button must be top notch, too, but the hole must be right, FIRST. Ruger hammer forges barrels in Newport; fine technique----providing the hole is pure and smooth first! The hammer cannot hammer a rotten hole into perfection.

Chamber-to-bore alignment is traditionally a forte of Smith & Wesson. More OFFSET generally found among Rugers. I have rarely, very rarely, seen Ruger .44s with .000-to-.002 runtout (RUNOUT and OFFSET are two words for the same condition). Runout of .006” is not unusual, yet doesn’t prevent a revolver with excellent barrel, firm chamber exits, and good forcing cone from shooting inside 6-inches @ 200 meters[/u].

I don’t know the origin of the disease, but there is no excuse for over-tightening a barrel. Revolvers shipped with a COMPRESSION RING should come with a straight jacket. A torque wrench should not be used on revolver barrels. Proper tension of barrel tenon to frame----without distort----is the job of THREAD TIMING.

There is no escaping the Firing Line.
David Bradshaw

[potatojudge]

David, what would you say about examples of revolvers you've tried that weren't up to snuff? How many guns went down the road for being less accurate examples of a model?

I feel like of all the factors detrimental to accuracy chamber/bore offset is the most terminal. Forcing cones can be recut, barrels re-timed, bullets of the right diameter selected, cylinder throats honed, etc.

I've tried to arrange a barrel and cylinder to demonstrate alignment issues to make my question more clear:

Proper alignment:




Chamber to bore offset:



As a woodworker, when I rear runout this is the defect I imagine (runout is where the direction of the grain is askew to the direction of cut and determines many things, including the correct direction in which to feed the lumber through your router, saw, jointer, planer, etc)



We never talk about it, but I'm pretty sure I've seen reports of a defect seen in the last "runout" example. Can't remember how the measurements were made to determine that condition, but IIRC it ends up being a factory fix and either new cylinder, frame, or gun altogether.

[shorty500]

A recent review of my records shows that in the last 35 years have owned/ still own or have done repair/customization on over 200 Ruger Singleactions, and 223 S&W. Have NEVER found a thread choked barrel. The #1 offender of bad dimensions always seemed to be .45 Colts. Several of each brand suffered from oversized chambers and throats from the old days of sloppy Colt-style specs. From roughly 1990 moving thru present I found most but not all Rugers to possess throats of .449/.450 diameter and typically SAAMI minimum .483 diameter chambers. From 2005 forward after the New Vaquero was introduced chamber diameters seem to run very tight and great for brass life around .480/.481 with throats in the .4515/.452 range.