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Post by 2 Dogs on Dec 25, 2017 13:01:31 GMT -5
I have dug hard into just what a MODERN 32-20 can and can't do out of a sixgun. I have taken a hand at helping to conceptualize and popularize what I think (thought?) is about the best balanced bullet weight for the 32-20, the 135 grain large cavity HP, and even gone so far as to build a very fine sixgun around the 32-20 and set it up specifically to best manage the heavy for caliber projectiles. Over the years, with much guidance from mentors like Sixshot and BobK I have learned to better alloy my bullets to produce sixgun varmint bullets that kill with spectacular and destructive results.
BUT, I am struck with a bit of a mystery looking back at a couple of the heavy loads we have worked with. I say "we" and while many of us have used the 135 grain Sixgun Sledgehammer or "Ferminator" as my friends like to call it bullet, only a few that I am aware of have actually run the even heavier 311440 "Flying Fist" from their 32-20s. Feel free to correct me here if you have tried the Flying Fist as I would love to hear your sixgun results with that big bad dude.
So, just to give you a little history here, our old friend and mentor Paco Kelly as far as we know was the first to load the 150ish grain 311440 Lyman into his Buckeye and sling it out of there at a bit over 1400 fps and write about it. Jeff Hoover and I some several years later, with a BobK updated Cramer style Miha mold, sought to see if we could duplicate Paco's results.
Sure enough, we were able to reach 1425 fps or so with the 150 grain bullet. Now, keep in mind, the 311440 was not designed for the 32-20 in the first place and it's length required it to be deep seated so that only left enough room for 13.3 grains of H110 as I recall. On the other hand, the Sledgehammer WAS designed to be seated out of the 32-20 with it's .400" nose to crimp. This left room for 14.5 grains of H110 and yields 1525 fps.
So, here is my burning question. How is it, that the Flying Fist bullet that is deep seated almost holds as much powder as the one that is not? My Sledgehammers are indeed cast pretty soft, something like 10 BHN, and thus trying to compress the powder charge will only deform the bullet, so maybe I should try a harder bullet? The Flying fist is TWENTY grains heavier than the Sledgehammer yet is with one grain less of powder within 100 fps of the 135 grain Sledgehammer. What am I missing? Would the Sledgehammer at 135 grains perform better from the 32-20 if it were seated a bit deeper to increase the pressure? Shouldn't the Sledgehammer be flying at least 1600 fps? Where are my hard handloader thinkers on this subject....
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Post by sixshot on Dec 25, 2017 15:21:40 GMT -5
Fermin, I'ver been shooting the #311410 bullet in my 32/20 ammo out of my NM 30 carbine with great accuracy but I'll have to look up the load & actual bullet weight. I think the weight it a bit lighter but will have to check later. This is a plain base bullet & is designed to duplicate the military hardball 30 carbine.
I do know I have 2 loads that have shot great with this bullet powder coated & sized to .313".
Dick
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Post by needsmostuff on Dec 25, 2017 16:51:12 GMT -5
I have nothing to add on bullet weight as I have not gotten that heavy,,,,, yet.
But I do have a question requiring a bit of a thread drift yet it may be pertinent. Twist ? I find little on optimum twist for 32-20.
My query revolves around a Colt army special 32-20 with a barrel bulge and my inability to find a decent screw on replacement. Sleeving would be a possibility. I've also been looking for .311 barrel stock to have one turned out of and finding little . Russian rifle barrels seem to be about right but seem to average about 1 in 20" which seems a little slow but their bullet weight is about 125 (sks ) to 148-200 (mosin). Any thoughts on what would be a best twist range for heavyish bullets or where to look for barrel stock.
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Post by bushog on Dec 25, 2017 16:59:40 GMT -5
I'm interested too! I picked up the last 31140 mold Miha had after I read about Hoover using it. Glad I did.... I have dug hard into just what a MODERN 32-20 can and can't do out of a sixgun. I have taken a hand at helping to conceptualize and popularize what I think (thought?) is about the best balanced bullet weight for the 32-20, the 135 grain large cavity HP, and even gone so far as to build a very fine sixgun around the 32-20 and set it up specifically to best manage the heavy for caliber projectiles. Over the years, with much guidance from mentors like Sixshot and BobK I have learned to better alloy my bullets to produce sixgun varmint bullets that kill with spectacular and destructive results. BUT, I am struck with a bit of a mystery looking back at a couple of the heavy loads we have worked with. I say "we" and while many of us have used the 135 grain Sixgun Sledgehammer or "Ferminator" as my friends like to call it bullet, only a few that I am aware of have actually run the even heavier 311440 "Flying Fist" from their 32-20s. Feel free to correct me here if you have tried the Flying Fist as I would love to hear your sixgun results with that big bad dude. So, just to give you a little history here, our old friend and mentor Paco Kelly as far as we know was the first to load the 150ish grain 311440 Lyman into his Buckeye and sling it out of there at a bit over 1400 fps and write about it. Jeff Hoover and I some several years later, with a BobK updated Cramer style Miha mold, sought to see if we could duplicate Paco's results. Sure enough, we were able to reach 1425 fps or so with the 150 grain bullet. Now, keep in mind, the 311440 was not designed for the 32-20 in the first place and it's length required it to be deep seated so that only left enough room for 13.3 grains of H110 as I recall. On the other hand, the Sledgehammer WAS designed to be seated out of the 32-20 with it's .400" nose to crimp. This left room for 14.5 grains of H110 and yields 1525 fps. So, here is my burning question. How is it, that the Flying Fist bullet that is deep seated almost holds as much powder as the one that is not? My Sledgehammers are indeed cast pretty soft, something like 10 BHN, and thus trying to compress the powder charge will only deform the bullet, so maybe I should try a harder bullet? The Flying fist is TWENTY grains heavier than the Sledgehammer yet is with one grain less of powder within 100 fps of the 135 grain Sledgehammer. What am I missing? Would the Sledgehammer at 135 grains perform better from the 32-20 if it were seated a bit deeper to increase the pressure? Shouldn't the Sledgehammer be flying at least 1600 fps? Where are my hard handloader thinkers on this subject.... |
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Dec 25, 2017 22:20:36 GMT -5
Since starting in and working with the 30-20 in a TC then swapping over to a Buckeye after a long wait, to the tune of close to 20 years, I have run pretty much every thing from 110's - 220's through the TC. I swapped over several of my TC loads to the buckeye with no issue.
I ran very little H110/296 through the 30-20. AA#9 was always my go to powder. Slow enough so as not get into any trouble with sensible loads, just a touch faster than H110/296, or to my findings.
FYI, talked to a gent last year that is a single shot rifle guy with cast bullets. He shoots a 32-20 and a 32 miller. He advised me that AA#9 has changed and is not what it used to be. He and others were still searching for another powder.
I have played with lilgun some. Initially used it in the TC. Yes it burns hot. Noticed and notes that the very first relay I shot with the combo. The last ten rounds would really let one know it was hot going through a thin leg guard and a pair of jeans. I got extra speed, but unexplained flyers seemed more common too. Never tried to figure out the why, just switched back to AA9 and went on.
Too the speed of the two bullets. I would suspect the weight would add enough to bump pressure up on the heavy.......?Thus adding to the speed on the max/full to the base compressed loads. More weight and bearing length= more resistance/friction=more pressure=more speed. I feel there is a happy place in there some where.
The Buckeye platform being a sherman tank for the case, I would suspect we are pushing pressures further than we think. With speed comes pressure,most of the time
The 32-20 case for me has been easy to work with. Of the thousands I have loaded and used, then asked it to do somthing it was never designed for or thought of doing,other than by a few loonies. I have lost zero cases to pressure issues, excluding primer pockets. Then those were few. I have plumb worn out more brass than I ever did by stressing it. So much for weak cases,most were RP a few WW and some starline thrown in after they started making it.
Dunno if this just muddied the waters or not. Hope it maybe helped put an angle on things.
Jeff
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 25, 2017 23:09:57 GMT -5
Have only shot the .32-20 as a .30-20 in the Contender. Were the two bullets in question placed in front of me, I’d section two cases lengthwise and place the two bullets in the neck at the permissible COL, make a visual comparison. Vihtavuori 110 stick powder comes to mind. Vihtavuori 110 doesn’t do anything velocity & accuracy wise in the .44 Mag than Winchester 296 doesn’t do a few percent better. The picture might change in the .32-20 environ. I would want a simultaneous target & chronograph picture, then branch from there.
As you get into slow-for-case powders, recoil sensation may go from a snap to a push, forcing the follow through issue. Long barrel time sometimes produces incredible accuracy, while at the same time it wipes out forgiveness on follow through.
David Bradshaw
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Post by cherokeetracker on Dec 26, 2017 10:18:42 GMT -5
I have nothing to add on bullet weight as I have not gotten that heavy,,,,, yet. But I do have a question requiring a bit of a thread drift yet it may be pertinent. Twist ? I find little on optimum twist for 32-20. My query revolves around a Colt army special 32-20 with a barrel bulge and my inability to find a decent screw on replacement. Sleeving would be a possibility. I've also been looking for .311 barrel stock to have one turned out of and finding little . Russian rifle barrels seem to be about right but seem to average about 1 in 20" which seems a little slow but their bullet weight is about 125 (sks ) to 148-200 (mosin). Any thoughts on what would be a best twist range for heavyish bullets or where to look for barrel stock. This should help,, especially with your bullet lengths and or possibly weights. www.lasc.us/ConversionTables.htm#Greenhill
edit: attempt to answer the last question, Greenhill barrels has barrel blanks in 1-22 twist.
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Post by boolitdesigner on Dec 26, 2017 11:06:34 GMT -5
The answer is difference in bullet shapes. Since I have both drawings, I can overlay them and see. You give me cartridge O.A.L. for the Ferminator and the Hammer and I'll show you. As far as deep seating the 440 Hammer, you are trying it in a handgun....... rifles allow more latitude.  |
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Post by 2 Dogs on Dec 27, 2017 15:42:34 GMT -5
Still dealing with Christmas and contractors and other chaos around here and I haven't had a chance to do any measuring or filling up 32-20 cases with water or any such, but here is a VERY good post from Russ Cottle!
Going through my notes on the .30 carbine/135gr Sledgehammer project and realized I hadn't added an update to this topic in awhile. WELL, THANKS, I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS ONE FOR AWHILE! As I've mentioned previously, my .30 carbine will chamber .32-20 brass w/o any modification (using my batch of 500 Starline cases). REMEMBER GUYS, WITH 30 CARBINE BRASS THIS VARIES FROM BRASS LOT AND CYLINDER DIMENSION DIFFERENCES. My concern was seating depth of the 135gr HP Sledgehammer and powder capacity (Fermin said the benchmark was 1500+fps from a 7.5" barrel)Two things to report, in my NMB .30 carbine, I can, using the .32-20 brass I have from Starline, seat the 135HP out to the crimping groove thereby using all the powder capacity of the case. In my gun 14.5grs of 110/296 will surpass the 1500fps benchmark easily, as will 15grs 4227. I have got around to putting a scope on the gun and shooting for accuracy yet, so that remains to be done. As an aside, I've also tested the 100gr and 115gr 604 HE MEANS 640 design and they work. SO, for you gents that want a .32-20 but can't afford a custom or Buckeye, get you a .30 carbine NM Blackhawk, a Lee .311 and .309 sizers (taking it from .314 to .309 in two steps), some Starline .32-20 brass, a set of .30 carbine dies and a .32-30 shell holder and take to it. Fermin and BobK have designed what to me is the perfect bullet for the .30 carbine/.32's. VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE RUSS HAS A .308" BARREL ON THAT SIXGUN!!
For the longest time, I have question WHY anyone would put a .308" barrel on a 32 caliber sixgun. I understand it works, I have always believed however that the bore should be .312" and the bullet should at least be .313" but now, I am wondering.
Here, what no one to my knowledge has done, is prepared a big case 32 with both a .312" and a .308" barrel to see what differences the bore size would REALLY make. Case in point, with the slow burning powders, would pushing a .313" bullet out of a .3135" cylinder throat into a .308" bore create enough "drag" or "burn time" for H110 and like powder to bring about a increase in practical velocity without stressing the primer pocket or other???
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Post by sheriff on Dec 27, 2017 16:03:42 GMT -5
Thanks, Fermin, for cleaning up my post. Sometimes my ramblings are fuzzier than my photos. |
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Post by Encore64 on Dec 27, 2017 16:29:41 GMT -5
Fermin, I have both 32-20s and 327s with .308" and 311" bores. I can possibly help with some of those experiments.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Dec 29, 2017 22:10:38 GMT -5
That would be excellent if you could get off more than 3 hours per day....
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Post by bushog on Dec 30, 2017 10:10:21 GMT -5
Still dealing with Christmas and contractors and other chaos around here and I haven't had a chance to do any measuring or filling up 32-20 cases with water or any such, but here is a VERY good post from Russ Cottle! Going through my notes on the .30 carbine/135gr Sledgehammer project and realized I hadn't added an update to this topic in awhile. WELL, THANKS, I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS ONE FOR AWHILE! As I've mentioned previously, my .30 carbine will chamber .32-20 brass w/o any modification (using my batch of 500 Starline cases). REMEMBER GUYS, WITH 30 CARBINE BRASS THIS VARIES FROM BRASS LOT AND CYLINDER DIMENSION DIFFERENCES. My concern was seating depth of the 135gr HP Sledgehammer and powder capacity (Fermin said the benchmark was 1500+fps from a 7.5" barrel)Two things to report, in my NMB .30 carbine, I can, using the .32-20 brass I have from Starline, seat the 135HP out to the crimping groove thereby using all the powder capacity of the case. In my gun 14.5grs of 110/296 will surpass the 1500fps benchmark easily, as will 15grs 4227. I have got around to putting a scope on the gun and shooting for accuracy yet, so that remains to be done. As an aside, I've also tested the 100gr and 115gr 604 HE MEANS 640 design and they work. SO, for you gents that want a .32-20 but can't afford a custom or Buckeye, get you a .30 carbine NM Blackhawk, a Lee .311 and .309 sizers (taking it from .314 to .309 in two steps), some Starline .32-20 brass, a set of .30 carbine dies and a .32-30 shell holder and take to it. Fermin and BobK have designed what to me is the perfect bullet for the .30 carbine/.32's. VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE RUSS HAS A .308" BARREL ON THAT SIXGUN!! For the longest time, I have question WHY anyone would put a .308" barrel on a 32 caliber sixgun. I understand it works, I have always believed however that the bore should be .312" and the bullet should at least be .313" but now, I am wondering. Here, what no one to my knowledge has done, is prepared a big case 32 with both a .312" and a .308" barrel to see what differences the bore size would REALLY make. Case in point, with the slow burning powders, would pushing a .313" bullet out of a .3135" cylinder throat into a .308" bore create enough "drag" or "burn time" for H110 and like powder to bring about a increase in practical velocity without stressing the primer pocket or other??? Can't help with what difference it makes but I know that some of the folks were simply having OM Blackhawks in .30 carbine rechambered in .32-20 for the most inexpensive way to get there. Dick has proven you just shoot the .32-20s in the .30 carbine and they work fine so no real need. I had one ling ago and sold it because of the .308 barrel and I wanted a "real" .32-20.... That's one answer for the "why".... |
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Post by 2 Dogs on Dec 30, 2017 13:21:24 GMT -5
Can't help with what difference it makes but I know that some of the folks were simply having OM Blackhawks in .30 carbine rechambered in .32-20 for the most inexpensive way to get there. Dick has proven you just shoot the .32-20s in the .30 carbine and they work fine so no real need.
I had one ling ago and sold it because of the .308 barrel and I wanted a "real" .32-20....
That's one answer for the "why"....
There you go Greg just being all as confusing as possible. What Dick is actually doing is using 32-20 brass in his .30 Carbine NEW MODEL Blackhawk in order to avoid having to trim .30 Carbine cases and or dodge any headspace/primer ignition issues that arise from using ill fitting and rimless .30 Carbine brass. Dick still has to size his cast bullets down to fit the .30 Carbine throats and lots of guys doing the same thing do have to trim their cases a little to get them to fit as the 32-20 case is some longer (1.315 vs 1.290 but this does vary) so what you end up with is either a "Rimmed .30 Carbine" or a Shortened "30-20" or whatever. Maybe. Kinda. Now my head hurts....
And on top of all that, Guys insist this wont work in the OM 30 Carbine sixguns for the recessed case head cylinder. Well, I don't have one to measure but I can't see why one couldn't turn the recessed portion off the rear end of the OM 30 Carbine cylinder in a lathe to clear the rim of the 32-20 brass. But what do I know? Always with the negative vibes....
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jan 6, 2018 15:32:58 GMT -5
The answer is difference in bullet shapes. Since I have both drawings, I can overlay them and see. You give me cartridge O.A.L. for the Ferminator and the Hammer and I'll show you. As far as deep seating the 440 Hammer, you are trying it in a handgun....... rifles allow more latitude. OK, let's get the Wizard in gear here.... 32-20 Case Length....1.282" Sledgehammer length w/GC......748" Flying Fist w/GC.....836" 32-20 OAL with Sledgehammer....1.668" 32-20 Oal with Flying Fist....1.592" |
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