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Post by the priest on Oct 28, 2009 10:43:51 GMT -5
Here's one that should to elicit a stoning,... ;D
For those of you who shoot the really heavy heavies (bullets) in your handguns,.....regardless of caliber,....why?
What was the heaviest Keith ever used in his handguns?
What advantages are there to compensate for the extra recoil and use of extra lead in that one shot? (semi-rhetorical)
Who here is going to shoot something that actually NEEDS the extra weight that a standard, hard cast bullet would be a disadvantage?
Has this become the newest part of the newest fad? HUGE handguns that shoot HUGE bullets?? It seems to me the bullets just keep getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger,........and,.....
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princeout
.375 Atomic
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Posts: 2,014
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Post by princeout on Oct 28, 2009 10:51:46 GMT -5
For those of you who shoot the really heavy heavies (bullets) in your handguns,.....regardless of caliber,....why?
I do it for fun. Most of the time, all I shoot is paper targets, but I sometimes like to shoot heavy for caliber bullets just for the "push" from the recoil. Tim
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Len
.30 Stingray
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Post by Len on Oct 28, 2009 11:40:59 GMT -5
I am not sure what you mean by heavy.
I use 300 grains in my 44 mag at maybe 900 fps.
My .510 350 grains at under 1,000 fps
My 45 Colts around 275 grains at around 900 fps
The momentum of the heavy bullet will make up in penetration some of what you lose in lower velocity. I feel the 300 grain bullet is more comfortable to shoot than a high velocity 250 grains in the 44 mag.
For long range hand gunning I would go lighter at higher velocity, I limit my handgun game shots to maybe 75 yards.
A lot has changed in the last 30 years guns are stronger different powders are available. Elmer helped make major advances in calibers and guns in his day, if he were alive today it would not surprise me if he were carrying a 500 Linebaugh with 400 grain slugs.
I know in his rifles he leaned toward large caliber heavy bullets, cut a big hole, penetrate fully leaving an entrance and exit hole.
And it is fun too shoot big bullets without a lot of recoil.
Len
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Post by Lee Martin on Oct 28, 2009 11:44:05 GMT -5
Sometimes it's for better accuracy. I have a 5-shot 45 Colt that groups much better with 325 - 340 grain bullets than it does with 250 to 270's. -Lee www.singleactions.com
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Post by TEXASFIVEGUN on Oct 28, 2009 11:59:52 GMT -5
This is for me your millage may vary. Heavy for caliber bullets 1 - Shoot better in my guns especially at long range. 2 - Are easier to make shoot well and need less load development than light bullets most of the time. 3 - Penetrate better so I can take a reverse brain shot if I need to. 4 - They kick slower and with less of a sharp jab than a light bullet at the same power level. 5 - Cast bullets are at there best around 1,200 FPS and my guns easily reach that with heavy for caliber bullets. 6 - I can get more power with less leading from heavy bullets because of lower velocity. 7 - You get allot louder "CLANG" from a steel gong with them especially at long range. 8 - I believe they will be less affected by small brush, twigs, and grass than a light bullet. 9 - I know a hog hiding behind a small tree is still in danger of my heavy bullets. 10 - I can shoot subsonic to save my ears when hunting and still have more than enough power for the job.
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Post by bisleyfan41 on Oct 28, 2009 19:43:13 GMT -5
Really enjoying this thread. Good stuff.
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Post by cas on Oct 28, 2009 22:02:57 GMT -5
My heaviest Kieth-ish bullet is a 465gr .510 I stopped shooting them in favor of a 500+ grain WFN. 500grs @ 1000-1100 Vs. 465 @ 1200-1350fps felt recoil wise is like a .38 Special compared to a .44 Mag. The 500's are real easy shooting. I don't shoot heavies in everything, I usually match the bullet to the gun style/size/job. Back when I still had Ruger 44 mags, I only shot 300gr bullets because I could never get lighter ones to shoot as well, especially at long ranges. My S&W 44 gets 240's and no more.
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Post by plainsman on Oct 28, 2009 22:23:04 GMT -5
Plus they look really neat in those extra long custom cylinders!
Really thouth, the extra penetration is good for the big critters that you simply must immobilize however for deer critters - the speed of a lighter bullet wins the game with extra shock power! Most of my revolvers for deer digest Hornady XTP at high speeds they are the hammer on deer!
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Post by the priest on Oct 28, 2009 23:14:12 GMT -5
Well, just playing devil's advocate here,.....
Isn't the twist of the barrel supposed to determine how well that barrel handles heavy or light bullets? So is it the bullets fault or a mismatched twist rate?
Is velocity related to decibels? Me thinks no.
Leading? Is that the bullet's fault or a velocity/hardness issue? Rough bore? Uneven bore?
Penetration? Sure,...but again, are the heavy heavies REALLY needed?? --> An admittedly over used quote by one John Linebaugh; "My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 3/4" Seville and the hand load is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards." 260s at 900,.....mmmmmmmm hmmmmmm.
Although I certainly won't argue with fun and loud clangs,....the rest is opinion, personal perception, etc. Is that the best you guys can do?? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by nonpcnrarn on Oct 29, 2009 0:50:38 GMT -5
Well, just playing devil's advocate here,..... Isn't the twist of the barrel supposed to determine how well that barrel handles heavy or light bullets? So is it the bullets fault or a mismatched twist rate? Is velocity related to decibels? Me thinks no. Leading? Is that the bullet's fault or a velocity/hardness issue? Rough bore? Uneven bore? Penetration? Sure,...but again, are the heavy heavies REALLY needed?? --> An admittedly over used quote by one John Linebaugh; "My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 3/4" Seville and the hand load is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards." 260s at 900,.....mmmmmmmm hmmmmmm. Although I certainly won't argue with fun and loud clangs,....the rest is opinion, personal perception, etc. Is that the best you guys can do?? ;D ;D ;D Not that this will come up that often but if a critter is trying to lower your standing on the food chain would you rather defend yourself with a bullet that will shoot end to end through a deer or end to end through a brown bear? The bullet that will penetrate a bear may be overkill for a deer, but it will do the job. As an analogy, I didn't need a Toyota Racing Development Supercharger in my 4-Runner to run around town, but it sure comes in handy getting on a freeway ahead of a semi without becoming its hood ornament.
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Post by whitworth on Oct 29, 2009 5:51:06 GMT -5
This is for me your millage may vary. Heavy for caliber bullets 1 - Shoot better in my guns especially at long range. 2 - Are easier to make shoot well and need less load development than light bullets most of the time. 3 - Penetrate better so I can take a reverse brain shot if I need to. 4 - They kick slower and with less of a sharp jab than a light bullet at the same power level. 5 - Cast bullets are at there best around 1,200 FPS and my guns easily reach that with heavy for caliber bullets. 6 - I can get more power with less leading from heavy bullets because of lower velocity. 7 - You get allot louder "CLANG" from a steel gong with them especially at long range. 8 - I believe they will be less affected by small brush, twigs, and grass than a light bullet. 9 - I know a hog hiding behind a small tree is still in danger of my heavy bullets. 10 - I can shoot subsonic to save my ears when hunting and still have more than enough power for the job. Great post! I agree! For me at least, penetration is king. I am already starting out with a large diameter so expansion isn't necessary, but in my game, I like two holes. Light bullets just don't carry the momentum of heavy-for-caliber bullets, and in my opinion, you can't drive light bullets fast enough from a revolver to experience the hydraulic shock associated with rifle rounds. Also keep in mind that the faster you push a bullet initially, the faster they scrub off speed. Slow, heavy projectiles don't lose velocity nearly as fast. Example: Read an article in American Hunter this month where Gary Smith tested some new .454 ammo by Winchester (I believe). Some 260 grain hollow-point. They left the muzzle of his FA at a scorching 1,909 fps -- by 100 yards, that speed was down to 1,550 fps. It lost nearly 360 fps in 100 yards! Not a design flaw in the ammo, just a result of pushing light bullets, fast. I push my 420 grain bullets kinda fast from my .475 to the tune of 1,350 fps. If the load wasn't so accurate, I would slow it down a bit. But, that said, I only get 18-inches of drop at 200 yards. Not "flat," but completely manageable, predictable, and repeatable.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2009 10:15:44 GMT -5
Isn't the twist of the barrel supposed to determine how well that barrel handles heavy or light bullets? So is it the bullets fault or a mismatched twist rate? It should, but think about Freedom Arms. They use really slow twist and handle heavy 45s just fine. My 83 groups better with 300 plus than with 250 bullets.
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Post by the priest on Oct 29, 2009 12:23:50 GMT -5
Whitworth, What are you shooting that Linebaugh's 260 grain loads won't shoot through? (which is the general point to my first post,.....why use bullets 100grains heavier, or more, when something smaller with less kick, etc, will do the exact same thing) Bullet speed is lost because of friction. A lighter bullet doesn't necessarily lose it because of being lighter. Of course something traveling fast and having a greater drag is going to lose velocity in greater proportion. That's true of anything. When the drag is reduced,....the rate at which the velocity drops off is reduced too. There is no magic associated with heavy bullets, sorry. bigbore454, that's a good point,....I wonder why that is true? (I'm asking) Anyone else? ?
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Post by the priest on Oct 29, 2009 12:29:10 GMT -5
We need Sixshot to chime in here with some more real world experience,......on bullets used while whacking some REAL big game. Different bullet weights, sizes of animals, what did and didn't pass through,....etc. That man should be filed under 'reference material' at this point.
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Post by maxcactus on Oct 29, 2009 12:40:03 GMT -5
Really enjoying this thread. Good stuff. +1. Excellent thread idea, Priest, and an equally excellent response from many, especially TEXASFIVEGUN. I wonder if many of us use/carry/shoot these heavy bullets and heavy loads "just in case"?? I know FOR ME this question is in large part psychological - I don't feel undergunned with my S&W M25 carrying 255 gr. Keiths @ 1050 fps. That said, my last couple trips out into the sticks I loaded my 45 Colt Bisley with 325 gr. LFNs @ 1350 fps - overkill for just about anything in the lower 48. My rational brain KNOWS my chances of NEEDING that level of power are virtually nil, but as been said before, you can't kill a critter too dead. Brian Pierce published an article in Handloader in the past couple years about heavy bullet loads at moderate velocities. Very interesting, but again, necessary for most applications? I don't think so. About the only real (logical) argument I can see that would affect my decision would be that of accuracy. Max.
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