S&W Talo 3-5-7

[KRal]

Last week, my lovely wife gave me my first Smith and Wesson revolver.



It was an early 25th wedding anniversary gift and one that I'd been eye-ball'n for a while. When I received it, I only had two days before I was going to be out of town and I didn't want a brand new revolver setting in the safe unfired. So, the next day I immediately stuffed it full of some loads I had loaded for my GP100. It was a new load that I hadn't fired yet. It consist of a 158gr Speer Deep Curl over a max charge of H110.

I set up a 25 yard paper target to check point of impact and the first 3 round group was nothing to brag about. I figured it just needed a little seasoning and me getting used to the grip. I fired the second 3 round group and it was much better - measuring about 1". The group was about 3" high and about 5" to the left. I made appropriate adjustments and was going to reload and couldn't get the cylinder open. I messed with it a few minutes and it finally opened. I then shot another 3 round group. Group got a little tighter, but adjustments still needed - I made appropriate adjustments and fired again. This time all 3 rounds were one ragged hole. Now me and the gun are getting settled in. Time to reload and the dang cylinder won't open again! Well, finally get it open to reload and decided it was zeroed close enough to move to my 50 yard steel to fine tune the sights. (Sorry for not taking pictures of all this, but I was pressed for time.)
First 3 rounds measure about 2.5" - not bad for me with new gun and iron sights. The group was still high (about 4") and left (about 3") so I made more adjustments. This adjustment bottomed out my rear sight, so I'm hoping it's going to be close (I wanted about 2" high at 50 yards). Shot next 3 round group measuring about 1.5" - now I'm liking what I see, but still about 2" left. I now make my last windage adjustment and it's pegged out (Something ain't right!). I get ready to reload for one last cylinder and, you guessed it....can't get the dang cylinder open. Bye now I'm getting really aggravated!!! This is a brand new gun! After I finally get it open, reload, and shoot that last group, it's almost zeroed, but I'm all out of adjustments.
I fight with the cylinder again, get it opened to clear gun for inspection and realized the barrel is canted to the right from the perspective of looking through the sights while shooting. It wasn't noticeable while shooting, but when I looked from the muzzle end it was easily noticed. Well now I'm a real happy camper - got a brand new gun (Smith and Wesson), the cylinder latch is having issues and the barrel is canted.
I later researched this cant issue and it seems to be a problem from S&W for better than 10 years (That's how far back I found issues on various forums). You'd think if it's been an issue for 10 years or better, S&W would make a few adjustments with their QA/QC department. I thought S&W was supposed to be the Cadillac of double action revolvers. I've got to say, my first one has put a bad taste in my mouth! Hopefully their customer service is not as bad as there production guns. I know every company can produce a lemon from time to time and I'm not labeling S&W according to my first one, but........It's just very frustrating. If I was planning on scoping it, I prolly wouldn't worry as much about the canted barrel but I want to leave it with irons and I'd really like the cylinder to open when I need it to. I'll be contacting them for the return of my gun and will post the results.
Anyone else run into these issues?

[dougader]

It sounds like a shooter if they'll just get the barrel mounted straight and fix the cylinder latch. Older S&W have been real nice guns for me. The newer ones have been hit and miss.... kind of like some of the QC problems Ruger has from time to time...

[ChiefTJS]

I've had canted barrels from Ruger and Smith in the last few years. Good news is that both companies have fixed them up very well at zero cost to me. I have the five inch version of your 686+ and it was straight thankfully, it's out for tuning at the moment with Frank Glenn.

[BRASF0311]

It ain't just S&W, my new Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter has a canted barrel, sloppy cylinder fit, and loose screws, plus gouges on the grip frame. I've sent some revolvers back to Ruger before and one came back worse than when it was sent. The SBHH shoots good, so I'm still trying to decide if I'm going to keep it.

We are paying to much for revolvers lately for such bad QC from any manufacturer.

[bradshaw]

We are paying to much for revolvers lately for such bad QC from any manufacturer.
----BRASFO311

*****

Bean counters take heed.
David Bradshaw

[dougader]

My beloved 44 Spl Bisley flat top came with a canted barrel and a spot on the front of the frame where the bluing didn't take. I called Ruger and they sent a shipping label, fixed the gun up good as new (ha!) and shipped it back in a couple weeks. Turns out the little gem was born on the same day as me, 4/14. Now I have to keep it!

S&W came in spitting lead. I even had a cut on my forehead from it. And the SA trigger was really light. Shipped it to S&W.... my dime, and they shipped it back a month later. I cleaned it and sold it when I saw what used gun prices were for the 632 and got an AR-15, a Colt LE6920 no less. A couple weeks later the new buyer wrote to ask me about a problem where the gun won't stay cocked in single action shooting... wow.

Point is, things do get by QC in this marketplace. For the most part, I've started buying old guns... but then they keep coming out with must-have guns like the 454/480 SBHB, the 44 FTB, the S7 327, the GP100 44 Spl, and the S&W 69's... how's a guy supposed to pass all those up?

I will say, I think the overall fit and finish on my shorty 480 SBH Bisley is better than it was on the 6.5" model. I don't recall having a Ruger SA with such a tightly fitted cylinder lockup... close to FA tightness IMO.

I never had guns sent in for warranty work in the 80's when I started buying my own guns. Never. Ruger, S&W, Beretta, Colt, Star, Glock, even Davis junk 32 caliber and Grendel 380 still worked as described.

[Alaskan454]

Don't give up just yet. I've had a few issues with guns from Ruger, CZ, and S&W. All companies made it right in the end.

[BRASF0311]

I grew up collecting Rugers with my Dad, so I have a soft spot for them, but I have really considered lately selling them all, and getting a Freedom Arms 83 in 454 with 45acp cylinder, and a 97 in 22lr / 22mag, both with 6" octagon barrels. Problem solved. Still fighting with the decision though.

[gunzo]

I've had pretty good luck with S&W's. But not so much with Rugers, it's starting to seem that about every third one I get kicks me squarely in the crotch. I'm starting to get pretty sore.

But my most interesting gun experience was probably with a Colt. About 1977, how I was able wrangle a new in the box Gold Cup escapes my memory, but I had me a new GC & proud as a Peacock. One day while shooting, it decided it wanted to be a machine gun, maybe a 3 shot burst, or maybe it would dump a whole mag. It was fun for a minute or two but I wasn't comfortable with the legality & stopped, really disappointed & kinda panicked.
I called Colt & told the lady on the other end that my new GC had gone full auto. Silence. What should I do? I ask.

She said;
"You probably should to get that looked at"

Further communication furnished me with some numbers to call, but I finally just decided learn about the thing myself. An easy fix, but still the craziest thing I ever heard from a customer service rep, especially considering the situation.

[KRal]

Update...gave S&W a call today explaining the issues and they promptly emailed me a return lable and said it would be about a two week turn around. Customer service good so far.

[boolitdesigner]

I had the same problem with a S&W 629..... it slowly unscrewed itself in the same amount of shots as yours. It wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't gotten rid of the cross pin. I also don't own it anymore.

[bradshaw]

Oct 31, 2017 16:24:20 GMT -5 boolitdesigner said:

I had the same problem with a S&W 629..... it slowly unscrewed itself in the same amount of shots as yours. It wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't gotten rid of the cross pin. I also don't own it anymore.

*****

For the barrel to loosen shows the effect of vibration, since a big bullet in right hand twist acts to screw barrel into frame. Better to have the barrel under-tightened than to have Gorilla Monsoon crush it into the frame. Loctite would secure the barrel of your departed M-629 from coming loose. Fine threads----as used by Smith & Wesson----are a good thing. Of course, at the factory the issue comes down to THREAD TIMING, and the collective ignorance of this detail at the manufacturing level is appalling.
David Bradshaw

[KRal]

Nov 3, 2017 7:47:01 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

Oct 31, 2017 16:24:20 GMT -5 boolitdesigner said:

I had the same problem with a S&W 629..... it slowly unscrewed itself in the same amount of shots as yours. It wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't gotten rid of the cross pin. I also don't own it anymore.

*****

For the barrel to loosen shows the effect of vibration, since a big bullet in right hand twist acts to screw barrel into frame. Better to have the barrel under-tightened than to have Gorilla Monsoon crush it into the frame. Loctite would secure the barrel of your departed M-629 from coming loose. Fine threads----as used by Smith & Wesson----are a good thing. Of course, at the factory the issue comes down to THREAD TIMING, and the collective ignorance of this detail at the manufacturing level is appalling.
David Bradshaw

And I think David nailed it on the head - I believe it was thread timing. My barrel was canted before I started shooting. It was shooting 6" left at 25 yards right out of the box; but it shot tight groups.

[awp101]

Oct 19, 2017 7:26:54 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

We are paying to much for revolvers lately for such bad QC from any manufacturer.
----BRASFO311

*****

Bean counters take heed.
David Bradshaw

Nov 3, 2017 7:47:01 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

Of course, at the factory the issue comes down to THREAD TIMING, and the collective ignorance of this detail at the manufacturing level is appalling.

It's a corporate culture and not just S&W, but practically any corporation of decent size. If the options are using common sense to solve a problem or checking off a box for a corporate mandated Six Sigma ISO hoobie doobie what ever, common sense usually loses.

I work for a global corporation that manufactures many types of industrial and automotive tools and tool systems among other things. A few years ago, some bean counter got the bright idea that it would be more cost efficient to hire temp workers to not only assemble the repair kits we use, but also the tools themselves. It wasn't long before we started receiving repair kits that either had too many parts or too few. Not every kit was bad, but there were enough that none of the techs were surprised when they got one.

Then we started getting brand new tools coming in for warranty repair. Tools missing slightly important parts such as bearings. Or replacement housings with o-rings on the outside of the tool, held in place by the sliding valve they were supposed to be sealing INSIDE the housing. The temps weren't even given detailed assembly instructions, just the same exploded diagram the techs use for repair and since the o-rings weren't actually shown INSIDE the housing, well they must go on the outside.

And all that doesn't even include the problems with outside suppliers sending out of spec parts or making changes to approved part designs without telling anyone. Like changing a throttle actuating ball from a hard plastic to a soft rubber that just squishes when the trigger is depressed instead of actuating the throttle rod and opening the valve.

We have a line of tools that can be set to shut off at a certain torque. A particular firearms manufacturer bought a batch and then started sending them back to us for warranty repair claiming they were over-torquing and out of spec. Our tech that specializes in this tool tested each one and they were all in range so a conference call was set up. Turns out they were using them to tighten assembly jigs that had to be tightened within a specific torque range. The problem is, their maximum acceptable torque was below the MINIMUM torque the tool could be set for. It was the wrong tool for the job but they were unwilling to consider a different series tool because they already had these on hand and they met some kind of ergonomic standards.

[KRal]

Update on Talo..

Just receive my revolver yesterday. I hurried home after work to do some testing before dark. My quick visual inspection show everything looking OK. The letter from S&W showed replacing the barrel, bolt and installing a taller front sight. I requested the taller front sight because there was not enough elevation adjustment to zero standard 158 gr loads; much less a heavier load.

I shoved 6 rounds in the cylinder, which open real easy, and fired three at 25 yards. All three were in a tight little group 1" below my point of aim. I figured this should be close to what I wanted for my zero (2" high at 50 yards). So, I shifted point of aim to my 50 yard target and shot the remaining 3 rounds about 3.5" high. I adjust down two clicks on rear sight and reloaded. Next three rounds were dead center of POI, so I went back up 1 click and bingo. Got my 2" high zero. S&W had mentioned test firing before shipping and they actually had it zeroed for me, they were only one click elevation off.

Overall it's shooting great and the customer service was great.
It was a little longer than they told me to begin with (2 weeks), but less than a month; nothing to complain about. I'm satisfied.