Scope Wiggle

[Snyd]

So a few months ago my buddy coloradoyaler blessed me with a 4X Leupold. I replaced my 2X with the 4X on the 45 Colt BisHunter. I like it and have been shooting it quite a bit lately. I have been working on getting used to more wiggle with the higher power. Since the wiggle is more pronounced I think my brain is/was telling my trigger finger to "hurry up and pull" as the cross hairs wiggle across my POA. I found myself jerking the trigger. Trying to "hurry up and shoot" while the crosshairs were in the perceived sweet spot. Not so much shooting at 50yds off hand but more so at 100+. Here's an example, I posted these on another thread. The first target I think I was yanking the trigger. The second target I really tried to not get distracted by the wiggle and hurry the trigger finger...just "let her dance and squeeze". I called the flyer knowing I had hurried that one but the other 5 felt better and they settled in rather nicely, at least for me at 120yds.

So, any pointers/tips you guys have that shoot 4X and higher power? At this point it seems like overcoming a psychological aspect. The brain thinks the crosshairs are dancing off the target but we know there is no more wiggle that there is with the 2X or no scope. I don't want to rely on a rock solid rest for the gun and forearms/elbows. This is a hunting gun. I rest my wrists only on a bag or block at the range so I still have some wiggle.

[bigbrowndog]

When I was shooting target archery one of the issues some had was called "target panic". The most effective cure for it was done with what is called a clicker.
The shooter would come to full draw, actually just shy of it by 3/8 to 1/4" and then they simply focus on keeping the sights on target and complete the draw process using back muscles to pull the last distance to allow the clicker to drop and "click" against the bow riser. Once the clicker went off you were supposed to release the arrow regardless of where you perceived your sights to be,.....let it fly!!!
What it got the archer to accomplish was to focus purely on sights and allow the conditioned muscles to do what they had always done drawing the bow the final distance.
When this is done in practice it would condition the archer forget about when to release the arrow and just keep sights on the target, the clicker would tell them when to release.
I think your trigger finger is conditioned enough to know what it needs to do, simply focus on keeping sights on target while continually applying pressure.  For me I also try and relax my grip as much as I can and still maintain control of the gun in recoil,I find muscle tension really works against trying to keep sights on target, especially on 4x and above.  I would practice doing this from a rest and then work on your offhand shooting. Also rebreathe when needed.

Just my 2 cents,.......

Trapr

[jsh]

How do those groups compare to groups with the 2X scope?

What you describe is not all that uncommon.
A scope will not take any "misses" out. I hate to admit it, but when I started into the IHMSA game, I was all about winning and getting into Int' class, no matter how or what. I scoped everything, and missed out on a lot of learning.
One thing on running 6X and above taught me is it will always be moving,period. As you mention, one can tend to yank the trigger as you pass by the target. That in its self causes other problems.
Practice and patience is about the best advice I can give.
As I am sure you know, revolvers are very grip sensitive. Trying to hold steady we tend to grip tighter and tighter trying to hold steady. Then it happens!
We forget to breath. Which in turn makes ones eyes loose focus.
Practice, maybe stay inside half your comfortable distance for a while. It will make your mind think you are moving less.
I also hate to admit I was at least 40 before I learned to appreciate iron sights, good ones. That put me on the tail end of my best eye sight. Today I appreciate a so so target with irons, way over a clover leaf group with glass.

One other thing. When you shot the above groups, how did you go about it?
Cock, fire, cock fire, etc?
I suggest making the shot, the first shot every time.
Establish your grip, cock, fire, lay the gun down. Second shot, take a minute. Repeat.
Also, if things get all fuzzy and all is not well, stop and start over! This tends to happen when take to long on getting focused on said target. Target gets fuzzy, then we grip the gun harder trying to get it to hold still. Then we forget to breath. The shot is usually out of the group.
Their is an immense amount of help here. I look forward to seeing your future results with improvements.
Jeff

[junebug]

You are right it is a mind game.Since we can't turn off our brain we have to retrain it. Start close again where you can concentrate on the basics of grip and breathing and not see so much wobble. Then work out from there. I like taking one shot at a time also ,then you concentrate on that one shot and not the group.The first shot is the one that counts the most so work on one at a time.

[webber]

Welcome to the real world of shooting with any optical sight. The more power the worse the movement. Try shooting with a scope on 6, 7, or 8.
It is all Pyscological keeping in mind you are moving no more than with open sights, you will do at least as well as using iron sights and should gain some in your shooting as you get more use to the magnified, get it "magnified" movement.
Even a one power and I have an old Burris one power movement is more apparent than withiron sights.
On this it you and you only you that will have to learn to control "the urge" to grab the trigger. What works for one may not work for you and more than likely it won't work.
Accept your movement as only the movement that you have with iron sights and don't let that brain get cockeyed on you.
Keep in mind you shoot within your movement area. Everyone moves. Take the esteemed Mr Bradshaw he moves when shooting offhand. He may move less than most but believe me he moves. The human platform isn't perfect. Some days due to circumstance that are difficult to control we will move more that others. Some days we calm down after a couple cylinderfuls and some days we never calm down. Those are the days to pack up and go home rather than to keep on keeping on and maybe learning bad habits due to our stubborness
LET THE GUN MOVE WHILE OPERATING THE TRIGGER WITHOUT JERKING THE GUN OUT OF YOUR NORMAL MOVEMENT AREA. The shot will be in there.

[bradshaw]

Snyd.... removing the Leupold 2x Long Eye Relief from your Ruger Bisley Hunter .45 Colt and replacing it with a Leupold 4x LER neither amplifies nor shrinks gun movement as you SIGHT & SQUEEZE. However, the 4x magnifies the same movement. Remember, the only difference between trigger squeeze from a rest and trigger squeeze from your hind legs----in offhand the gun never stops moving. Magnification allows us to see in greater, often distracting detail; blood pumps through our body as we squeeze.

Oxygen soothes nerves and DEEP BREATHING is the only way to get that oxygen into the eyes & muscles. As a goat hunter, you know what I’m talking about.

UNITY MAGNIFICATION (1x or zero magnification) promotes a perception of stillness----which brings peace of mind to aiming. Some think that the main flaw of magnification is a smaller Field of View. Magnification is a disadvantage in the woods and up close. My experience suggests that a greater challenge comes in perceived “wiggle” or “jiggle.” For a long eye relief handgun scope, 2x appears less disturbing and more easily controlled than 4x or higher. A rest----a rest includes kneeling, sitting, prone, Creedmoor, a tree, et cetera----shrinks our CONE of DISPERSION to make hits more consistent, thus extending range. Which is why we put a scope on a handgun in the first place----to reliably place a longer shot.

Suggestion
* Practice offhand with a lighter load, such as Cast 280 SWC DEEP SEATED over 10.6/HS-6 in .45 Colt brass, with standard primer.
* Dry fire three to five “shots” prior to live fire. Dry fire on fired cases to eliminate vibration and, thus, better see the crosshair at hammer fall; and to track your FOLLOW THROUGH.
* Do not mix fired with loaded rounds for the traditional rude surprise. Flinching can be an involuntary reflex to a “click” when “BOOM” is expected. Don’t pollute your mind with that lousy form of training.
* Start in close, increasing distance only as your CONE of DISPERSION allows.

As distance increases, higher magnification aids bullet placement, but the effect may be lost in offhand.

Ruger rings allow for swapping scopes with little or no loss of ZERO. Carry fingernail polish and apply to threads and clamp surfaces. Ruger rings on big bore revolvers are prone to vibration-loosening. The base screw on these rings tends to be short, which causes them to loosen on recoil. An extra set of rings would allow you to practice both scopes on the same day, under the same conditions.
David Bradshaw

[Snyd]

Thanks for all the responses gentlemen.

Basically it's sticking to the basics of good marksmanship and NOT allowing the moving crosshairs to be a distraction.

All in all I'm happy and feel that I am getting used to 4X wiggle. It's a matter of consistency now, shooting from more field positions and sticking to the basics.

Here are two groups I shot at 53yds before shooting at 120.

Fist cylinder of the range session. Standing off hand. First 2 shots were closest to center of the plate.



2nd cylinder with wrists rest. No part of the gun or my arms rested/supported, just wrists.



Here's my thoughts... At the shorter range the target appears bigger and the cross hairs don't appear to want to dance off to the miss zone as easily so the brain/trigger finger connection is more relaxed and not in "hurry up and shoot" mode. At 120yds the target appears smaller which increase the perception of the crosshairs wanting to dance off even more.

[bula]

I know I'd need a good dose of motion sickness dope to use a 4 power scope on a handgun. Tried a friends DW 445 with one. Yikes ! A skill set to be learned. 

[bigbrowndog]

Another thing I try to do, is not break a shot from a rest that I cannot keep crosshairs on vitals or on my target. Either don't shoot at that distance or get a better rest, I too recently switched from 2x to 4x and above and the ability to get over the movement that was always there took me 50-100 rounds, and taught me to get a better shooting position.

Trapr

[jsh]

I have seen some IHMSA folks use up to and over 20x for unlimited standing. I have NO idea how they do it. I tried with a buddies gun, anything over 10X bounced around like a butter fly.

One other thing, to touch on. Bullseye taught me this.
Do not change any of your daily habits because you are shooting for groups.
I was an all day coffee and Diet Coke drinker for a long time. The day of a match I would back wayyy off the caffiene, makes the wiggles even worse.

Looking at the pic you may be pushing the gun, my take on seeing them drop low. The higher ones may be a more relaxed grip.

I am guilty of both myself so don't be offended.

According to Dick, if you pull the trigger harder it makes the bullet go faster.
Jeff

[bradshaw]

Jeff.... when categories of competition were opened to scopes in handgun silhouette, a whole new race started. The Taco Hold----arms bent, close to body----reigned in most of the oscillation of shooting with arms extended in isosceles. The arm extension of isosceles, of course, provides greater EYE RELIEF with iron sights. The only advantage of isosceles with a scope is to keep the recoiling pistol away from your face. The taco hold allows shooter to mount a short eye relief rifle scope, which imposes a cartridge of tiny recoil. To try the taco hold with a hand cannon could be life-threatening. The taco hold took over in Field Pistol----100 yards, small bullets for small targets. The taco hold offers the big bore shooter nothing but danger.

(As a steel shooter, you know this. Anyone just sticking his or her toe in the water needs to know it.)

Snyd.... many a hunter is not a marksman. Such a hunter is not a serious shooter. As such, to wound an animal embarrasses his vanity, while the suffering of the animal is ignored. On the other hand, a Handgun Hunter must learn to shoot, to become a marksman or markswoman. Practice. To squeeze each shoot like it’s the only cartridge he or she has. No time for plinking. A sharpshooter means business. To construct this business we practice. With this in mind, it may advance marksmanship to try both your Leupold 2x and 4x on your Bisley Hunter .45 Colt in the same training session.
David Bradshaw

[jsh]

Snyd, I use but am not a big fan of dot sights. I am not very trusting of things with batteries, they seem to fail at the worst time.
None the less I have used them with success.
The smaller ones make a cleaner package for carry.
I have a TRS 25 on one of my GP100 357's. Probably have close to 3-4K of heavy cast bullet loads through it with out any issues. A couple of deer have fallen to this rig, one was about 50-75 ish, the other was 100+. FYI I used this same rig for bullseye for several years.
Just another option for you.
Jeff