|
Post by azshaun on Jul 5, 2017 15:55:22 GMT -5
Sad thing is that article might inspire someone to try. That comment sounds a bit harsh. Wasn't it Elmer Keith that did a lot of experimenting over "conventional wisdom" and helped change the face of firearms? Paco, by all accounts, had a lot of experience and experimented more than most. Sounds like you are saying he was irresponsible for what he wrote. Personally, I am greatful to him, and guys like him, who have been able to share their experience and help some of us have the courage to take our chances on guns or calibers that we might otherwise be afraid to try. Maybe I will never be good enough to do what he did, but knowing the potential gives someone like me a goal. Because of Paco Kelly and Jim Taylor I took a chance and got my first 41 Magnum. I am neither an expert with firearms nor hunting, so take it for what its worth. I am greatful for those who have gone before and had the courage to write their experiences so I can learn.
|
|
|
Post by tradmark on Jul 5, 2017 17:41:10 GMT -5
Dont mistake anything im saying as not being grateful. It is i may not agree. However, i do believe it is great to test and push limits. Just know thats what you are doing. Its the unfortunate few that think something is the hammer of thor and its not even the hammer of tim allen on tool time when they chase expensive dangerous game.
I too live the 41 and hunted alot with it. I do realize its limitations.
|
|
|
Post by jfs on Jul 5, 2017 18:24:41 GMT -5
Those .41`s sure can shoot. I`ve attached a photo of a three shot 100 yard group made when I first got my FA`s m-83....I could never duplicate that group again but it shows why JT said his FA`s 41 "is the most accurate revolver" he has shot....I also added a photo of a head shot boar using my FA 41.... I made a "not so good" first shot and he was on the way to rejoin his friends. I rested on a downed tree limb and can remember thinking that I was not going to make this 50/60 yard head shot (as that was the only kill shot I had) as I tried to center the crosshair. BOOM.... No one was more surprised then me when he dropped... That was a harder shot to make then the small three shot group at the range but you can`t have one without the other..... Again... Those .41`s sure can shoot..........
|
|
|
Post by sixshot on Jul 5, 2017 18:48:45 GMT -5
craigc, I'd say those first 3 bullets look pretty darn good! If you are shooting them clear through to the far side of 1500-1800 lbs animals & still look that good they have done their job. How can you find fault with those bullets, wow! It seems like only your parameters matter, it has to be a wooly mammoth, can only be located in Hondo, Texas, preferably at 9am on Tuesdays between 26 & 38 yds & only with your qualified bullets....did I miss anything! Come on, those bullets Craigc just pasted are great, what more could you ask for. The animals that Paco have taken over the years with the 41 magnum & several other handguns along with what Ross Seyfried has done would impress just about anyone but you & a few others I guess. Can we lower the standards just a tick so the rest of us can somehow meet the high bar you've set.
Dick
|
|
|
Post by tradmark on Jul 5, 2017 19:04:03 GMT -5
Dick, this gets into whether you were there or not. Some look good, some look horrible. Let's not even get into the number of shots but instead let's get into which bullets hit bone and were in the shoulder and which were behind the shoulder. The skinner who was there, who did all of our taxidermy was paid a handsome sum to recover bullets and tell me where they were located. Once again, I will bet you can easily tell which ones hit bone and which ones didn't. IMHO, what you see there on display is about a 50% failure rate! That's unacceptable to me. What else can I ask for? A 100% success rate is what I want. All joking aside, which rate is good enough for a Cape buffalo that you get one shot on? The 50% failure rate bullet or the one closer to a 100% success rate? That's the whole point of these tests. I can bet my buddy's Cape buffalo that cost him well over $10k that wasn't recovered had bullets in it that looked more like the deformed ones than the good ones! That's an expensive lesson to learn.
|
|
|
Post by CraigC on Jul 5, 2017 20:01:16 GMT -5
I'm not doing this.
|
|
|
Post by 500fksjr on Jul 5, 2017 20:07:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by sixshot on Jul 5, 2017 20:50:29 GMT -5
I'm with you guys! Hard to play by the rules when you don't know what they are......bye!
Dick
|
|
|
Post by azshaun on Jul 5, 2017 21:05:33 GMT -5
Paco also reports he killed a black bear with a 38 special with a hollow cavity wadcutter loaded backwards.... dead right there
Next you are going to say 38 Specials aren't rated for Black Bear?
"One of the best loads I found for real close range stopping power...(and remember in some states this would get you in hot water even if you had all the probable cause in the world to shoot some one with it....lawyers love to use the expression...excessive force...in civil law suits). I load a hollow base wadcutter backwards over 4 to 4.5 grains of Bullseye. I once shot a bear with this load, he entered Valhalla within about 50 feet. An older lady on a farm across from ours in Virginia in the 1970s, stopped two burglars permanently with one shot apiece, also with this load. Very effective! But be sure it won’t be a problem where you live before you use it. I have found it incredibly good against feral and wild dogs of any size and weight."
|
|
|
Post by tradmark on Jul 5, 2017 22:47:07 GMT -5
I'm with you guys! Hard to play by the rules when you don't know what they are......bye! Dick What rules changing?
|
|
|
Post by tradmark on Jul 5, 2017 23:45:17 GMT -5
craigc, I'd say those first 3 bullets look pretty darn good! If you are shooting them clear through to the far side of 1500-1800 lbs animals & still look that good they have done their job. How can you find fault with those bullets, wow! It seems like only your parameters matter, it has to be a wooly mammoth, can only be located in Hondo, Texas, preferably at 9am on Tuesdays between 26 & 38 yds & only with your qualified bullets....did I miss anything! Come on, those bullets Craigc just pasted are great, what more could you ask for. The animals that Paco have taken over the years with the 41 magnum & several other handguns along with what Ross Seyfried has done would impress just about anyone but you & a few others I guess. Can we lower the standards just a tick so the rest of us can somehow meet the high bar you've set. Dick So now you're making an assumption. Now im not impressed with what ross did and paco's animals? Now it has to be a wooly mammoth? In Hondo? With certian bullets? You know we test and use all bullets and test on several continents not just Hondo. You know this. Come on Dick, really
|
|
|
Post by whitworth on Jul 6, 2017 7:53:07 GMT -5
I'm with you guys! Hard to play by the rules when you don't know what they are......bye! Dick "No mas," he mutters breathlessly and almost inaudibly as the ref looks at him incredulously..... Sorry, just had to expand on your boxing metaphor from earlier in this thread. Come on guys. I know that discussions get heated at times over issues/topics we feel strongly about, but check your emotions at the door. As "adults" (I use this term loosely on this crowd -- myself included), we should be able to discuss "important" topics such as this without getting our feelings hurt. These boards are here to learn from, share information, and yes, for entertainment. I personally appreciate the impassioned arguments from opposing sides, but would love to see posts without animosity. Am I asking for too much? Can I get opposing sides to shake hands (virtually) and continue the discussion? As a side note, I find all of this very interesting and have dedicated a lot of time, effort and resources on the study of terminal ballistics. It would be a shame to see this degrade to the point that it stinks so badly it draws flies. Everyone step back, take a deep breath, rinse your mouth with water, put your mouthpiece back in, and carry on.
|
|
|
Post by contender on Jul 6, 2017 8:05:04 GMT -5
I have been following this thread with great interest & pleasure. I will FREELY admit to having never tried a handgun bullet in any wild bovine species. I've also never hunted Africa & have zero actual experience in those animals & what it would take to plant one properly & safely.
But I do work in animal damage control.
As such,, I get to see a lot of different approaches to shooting critters. While all of my stuff is definitely smaller & less dangerous than a pizzed off bovine, there are lessons in all of it. All animals can be POTENTIALLY taken with something less then ideal in caliber & weight. Bears have been killed with .22's as an example,, but it's NOT the optimum. And,,, each animal is a being all unto it's own. One may be tougher & meaner,,, than it's brother, standing side by side. A LOT goes into properly killing any animal. Caliber, bullet selection, bullet placement, shot angle, muscle mass, bone density, age of the animal, (older bones may be more brittle, or whatever.) Shooter skills, also play a lot into all of this. And I know I've missed a lot of variables. Many folks will try different things, and settle upon what they feel will do the job for them. I think it's a proven thing that the solid bullets, of whatever construction,,, when driven at the correct velocity can & will do the job most of the time,,, yet,, even the very best will run afoul of one (or more) of the variables & disprove previous theories. It is because we are dealing with live animals,, where the medium is not the same 100% of the time.
But,, keep the discussion going,,, as I do enjoy it & have learned a few things.
|
|
|
Post by whitworth on Jul 6, 2017 8:09:10 GMT -5
From the ".475 Revolver Down Under" article by Ross Seyfried in the December '89 issue of Guns & Ammo magazine. You can see in the photos the effort Ross made trying to build a better mousetrap.
|
|
|
Post by azshaun on Jul 6, 2017 9:21:22 GMT -5
As I said, I don’t claim to be an expert. Let's just say I am an aspiring hunter.
But Jim Taylor once wrote about bullets and performance... Cast and Jacketed...
I'll upload the full article when I can:
"BULLETS
When jacketed bullets first made their appearance they received a lot of bad press. Bullets blowing up in game were reported and most people did not trust them. The first jacketed handgun bullets were soft and had thin jackets and could be pushed beyond their capacity to hold together.
With the high-performance handguns we have today we face the same problem, but not with jacketed bullets only. Cast bullets can be run faster than their strength, resulting in bullet blowup or fragmentation when it hits game. If you are shooting rocks or steel targets or paper it's not a problem. If it is bear or some other critter that is big and mean it could be fatal.
There are jacketed designs on the market now that hold up very well to high pressure/high velocity loads such are developed in the 454 Casull. Early on in the game Freedom Arms developed the Heavy Jacket Hard Core line of bullets that work very well. Today Cor-Bon produces a line called "Penetrators"... solids designed to give maximum penetration. Lynn Thompson of Cold Steel has used these to take elephant, rhino, and hippo. He told me that on a frontal shot in a hippo he never did find the bullet. Penetration is measured in yards.
There have been some failures with jacketed bullets. One such failure is told in the Guest Speakers section of this site. "Bear Hunt" relates the failure of some 300 gr. .45-70 ammo on a bear. I also had a call from someone who lost a moose using the same bullet design in a different caliber.
Cast bullets work very well but there have been some spectacular failures. I do not know all the particulars of each case, but in several it was obvious the bullets were pushed at a velocity beyond their ability to stay together when they impacted hard, tough bone.
...
The other side of the coin is: Match the bullet to the game animal.
I shot a Whitetail at about 30 feet with the .348 Winchester using a Hornady 200 gr. JFP at 2650 fps. The shot was through the right front shoulder, clipped the heart, got both lungs and exited the left shoulder. The deer ran 100 yards like it had not been hit before slowing, stumbling and finally falling.
Later in the week I shot another Whitetail at about 40 yards. I used a 6" .41 Magnum with 200 gr. Speer JHP's at 1420 fps. The deer collapsed at the shot, then made a leap off it's back legs, hit the ground and kicked it last.
Why the difference? Bullet performance. The .348 bullet simply punched a small .34 caliber hole through and never expanded. The .41 bullet expanded but still punched clean through breaking both front shoulders. While the rifle had much more muzzle energy on paper it's performance was less than spectacular..... due only to my having used too hard a bullet for the animal being hunted.
Match the bullet to the game. Match the velocity to the bullet."
|
|