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Post by jfs on Jul 4, 2017 16:44:16 GMT -5
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Post by tradmark on Jul 4, 2017 17:12:48 GMT -5
There's the selection of some bullets we recovered. I must say I was shocked. The bullet on the far right is a 525 gr hardcast that obviously deformed and turned, and it was only going about 1,350 fps. Several of the bullets that look intact actually sheared off about 40% of their weight. Only one relatively intact nose went through heavy bone and it's a Garrett. Obviously a great bullet and those are the casts that Whit had that penetrated so well. On the flip side, James had his .50 cal punch at a sedate 1,250 fps through bone on a Cape buffalo and he recovered none of them. On this trip a .50 cal Punch bullet was used on the biggest bovine of the trip. Despite it's lower grain weight, that people seem so concerned with, went right through the animal and killed a ram on the otherside about 30 yards away. That's the penetration you get when the nose isn't compromised and it can do what it was designed to do! Don't even get me commenting on the cast at the bottom of the picture. This is why it took 12 shots and a coup de gras with a .500 JRH to finish the animal. I had a hard time telling if it was a bullet or a melted piece of candy. It retained its weight fully but obviously didn't maintain its shape to do much damage.
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500fksjr
.375 Atomic
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Post by 500fksjr on Jul 4, 2017 17:40:10 GMT -5
Theres the selection of some bullets recovered. I must say i was shocked. The bullet on the far right is a 525 gr hardcast that obviously deformed and turned. It was only going about 1350 fps. Several of the bullets that look intact actually sheared off about 40% of their weight. Only one relatively intact nose went thru heavy bone and its a garrett. Obviously a great bullet and those are the cast that whit had penetrate so well. On the flip side james had his 50 cal punch at a sedate 1250 fps thru bone ona. Cape buff and he recovered none of them. On this trip a 50 cal punch bullet was used on the biggest bovine of the trip. Despite its lower grain weight that people seem so concerned with went right thru the animal and killed a ram On the otherside about 30 yards away. Thats the penetration ya get when the nose isnt compromised and it can do what it was designed to do! Dont even get me Commenting on the cast at the bottom of the pic. This is why it took 12 shots and a coup de gras with a 500 jrh to finish the animal. I had a hard time telling if it was a bullet or a melted piece of candy. It retained its weight fully but obviously didnt maintain its shape To do damage. It is good to see your well versed!!!!
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Post by sixshot on Jul 4, 2017 18:40:46 GMT -5
Don't know what that bottom bullet hit but it failed miserably, exactly what you don't want. I thought you were the one I offered some bullets to, must have been someone else, my mistake! I've heard that Garrett's are very good bullets & I know that Cast Performance bullets were, they gave me a whole bunch of different bullets to try when I went to Africa. Kelly was very generous! Don't know any thing about them now, I'm assuming they are still good. Kind of makes you wonder how several million buffalo were killed with pure lead bullets doesn't it?
Dick
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Post by tradmark on Jul 4, 2017 18:48:18 GMT -5
Nah, I get how they killed 'em. They're essentially plainsgame animals and the hunting ethics we know and have now didn't exist. Just read their accounts. They shot a bunch of them and if they died great, if it took and hour or 10, so be it. Those animals will typically stay with the herd and languish till they die, in fact, not one bison I have ever shot ran off. Just hung out with the others till it fell. If solitary, they may run. They also aren't on par with Cape buff, or oryx IMHO. That's why they ended up with 2 and 4 bore rifles so they could throw bigger and bigger chunks of lead because they were bullets that didn't hang together well with any appreciable velocity. It makes sense how they worked in our old west. It's also all they had.
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Post by tradmark on Jul 4, 2017 19:03:44 GMT -5
Also very reminiscent of how the ivory hunters killed elephants and by all accounts many had horrible recovery rates. Kinda like locals with ak47's. Sure they kill big animals with em but alot of them run off injured to stomp some poor soul walking down the road a week later.
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edward
.30 Stingray
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Post by edward on Jul 4, 2017 23:31:34 GMT -5
20,000.00 or 30,000.00 or more safari,punch,or woodliegh hydro static solid,7.00 a round or more,dirt cheap,insurance.its dead you and the team are alive.thats my humble opinion.
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Post by tradmark on Jul 4, 2017 23:44:05 GMT -5
Aaaah. Edward you brought up the woodleigh hydrostatic solid. Very very effective bullet. Nice
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Post by sixshot on Jul 5, 2017 0:13:31 GMT -5
Dang it Ed! Quit being so sensible, I just about had them on the ropes! Besides, he wasn't there when they were killing those buffalo......
Dick
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f3
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Post by f3 on Jul 5, 2017 1:50:49 GMT -5
Don't know what that bottom bullet hit but it failed miserably, exactly what you don't want. I thought you were the one I offered some bullets to, must have been someone else, my mistake! I've heard that Garrett's are very good bullets & I know that Cast Performance bullets were, they gave me a whole bunch of different bullets to try when I went to Africa. Kelly was very generous! Don't know any thing about them now, I'm assuming they are still good. Kind of makes you wonder how several million buffalo were killed with pure lead bullets doesn't it? Dick Isn't that curious how an animal that weighed 2000 lbs. was brought to the brink of extinction with what is now considered very soft bullets. If I had the money I would like to use a 400+ grain 40-65 paper patched bullet of pure lead on one of these giant bovines. And on another note Paco Kelly writes of getting complete penetration of wild cattle with cast bullets out of the 41 magnum.
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Post by tradmark on Jul 5, 2017 10:33:19 GMT -5
What wild cattle? How big? What's the shot angle? Go to africa, plunk down 20 large and have at it!! Not arguing what does and doesn't work but what's best. Hell, I'm amazed the Army doesn't use the .45/70 anymore for combat. It worked right? The last author I heard talking about outstanding penetration with cast on elephant sounded like a hero on his hunt. That is until I booked a hunt with the same PH he was with. I was at the SCI show and I and saw this author walking past and my PH glared at him and the author wouldn't make eye contact with him. I asked him what that was about. He then told me the real story and it was way different than what was published. Miserable failure. Just miserable. And the article was a glowing review, so pardon me for being skeptical.
To anyone that says, "heck, I should just take this lead bullet etc., etc., etc. and kill whatever," just show up in Hondo this year and show us! I guess now I'll load some .41 cast loads and see what will penetrate on the waterbuff.
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Post by tradmark on Jul 5, 2017 12:34:12 GMT -5
Craig, if you remember the copper solids penetrated to the offside hide just like the punch on the largest waterbuff taken. Just how many of those bullets you required to take down that longhorn? I too agree the punch are the best but all our evidence there and in africa points to the grain weight not being the decisive factor. Maintaining nose profile is more important and pretty much the dominant factor in penetration and damage.
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Post by tradmark on Jul 5, 2017 12:53:27 GMT -5
And to talk about light. Remember i killed the watusi with a 250 barnes xbp after a 440 hardcast failed at 1300 fosand a mile long follow up. Video confirmed perfect shot placement. Unfortunately i only got one shot before it herded up and ran off. The guide quipped he was glad i pulled out a different gun with a different bullet. Me too
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Post by azshaun on Jul 5, 2017 12:55:17 GMT -5
What wild cattle? How big? What's the shot angle? Go to africa, plunk down 20 large and have at it!! Not arguing what does and doesn't work but what's best. Hell, I'm amazed the Army doesn't use the .45/70 anymore for combat. It worked right? The last author I heard talking about outstanding penetration with cast on elephant sounded like a hero on his hunt. That is until I booked a hunt with the same PH he was with. I was at the SCI show and I and saw this author walking past and my PH glared at him and the author wouldn't make eye contact with him. I asked him what that was about. He then told me the real story and it was way different than what was published. Miserable failure. Just miserable. And the article was a glowing review, so pardon me for being skeptical. To anyone that says, "heck, I should just take this lead bullet etc., etc., etc. and kill whatever," just show up in Hondo this year and show us! I guess now I'll load some .41 cast loads and see what will penetrate on the waterbuff. leverguns.com/articles/paco/41heavy.htmI believe this was the article if you were wondering. "I have an old mold from NEI for a 270 grain Keith shaped bullet in this caliber...Walt Melander the founder of NEI made it up for me when the company was still in Texas....21/H110 under this cast bullet pushes it well over 1320fps and over 1000 lbs of punch. It is my pig killing load, and it will do for elk also. The penetration of this bullet and the cast 300 grainer on large animals, has to be seen to be appreciated. In the 70s we used to rid the range of TexMex feral cattle, that mixed their gene pool with very expensive Black Angus and Brama beef cattle stock. The ranchers were not pleased with Tex/Mex cattle, and a number of ranchers and their help have been hurt by these animals. I used to get to test bullets and loads of all kinds on very heavy animals..some up to 1800 to 2000 pounds. Though at weight they were the exception not the rule...most were around 1300 to 1500 lbs, but nasty and aggressive. That ended when the dog food companies began to buy them so they could advertise beef in their dog food.... The 270 grain cast 41 doing 1320 fps broke both shoulders on a bull I caught in a dry wash one day...(a wash is a dry stream bed). At around 40 yards I nailed him directly on the point of the right shoulder, and the bullet crossed over and ripped a two inch hole thru the left shoulder and exited. The internal damage was amazing on such a large and tough beast. I have never had a problem hunting anything with the 41 magnum from that day on. Between heavy pigs and heavy cattle...nothing much exists that can’t be taken cleanly with this caliber. I might have to pause at taking the big bears of the north...personally I wouldn’t use anything less than a 454 on them..better still I’d rather use the 475 Linebaugh on them."
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Post by tradmark on Jul 5, 2017 15:18:33 GMT -5
Well, that kinda says it all doesnt it? He pauses for bears but then essentially says all bovines are on the menu. I suggest that someone take that cast in a 41 and drill a cape buff or a large asiatic waterbuff and have at it. Funny ross seyfried felt the 45 colt a bit light and went to the 475 for them and this writer feels a 41 is adequate medicine. All our own definitions of adequate vary. My best friend shot a bison with a 45/70 hardcast bullet. Worked like a champ. I championed the round. The outnof the same box it distroyed itself on a cow elk shoulder. If thats adequate to someone, fine, our definitions are this different. As ive said i prefer to hunt with as close to 100% bullet integrity as possible. Each to his own, bit as was proven on watusi the 41 drilled it and it crashed to the ground. Then summarily got up and charged whitworth and was stopped by a barrage of 50 caliber bullets. We can only speculate if the hunter had just his 41 and was alone how that would have turned out. Sad thing is that article might inspire someone to try.
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