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Post by sixshot on May 26, 2017 18:25:31 GMT -5
From time to time we all have discussed the benefits of water quenching or heat treating here on the forum. Some metals respond to it quite well like wheel weight alloy, etc. The reason wheel weight alloy responds to water quenching/heat treating is the presence of antimony & arsenic, along with the lead & a bit of tin.
Metals that don't respond to heat treating are linotype & also lead. Linotype, if it starts out at a BHN of 22 will still be a BHN of 22 if you tried to water quench or heat treat. The same goes for lead, it starts out usually about a 5 BHN & if you wanted to waste your time trying to heat treat or quench it, you would still end up with a BHN of 5.
Many of you already know this so we haven't really broken any new ground.....yet! So now we get to the somewhat new technique of powder coating that some of us have been doing for the last 3 years or so & having great success with. Others have been a bit slower to warm up to powder coating & have sited different reasons for their concerns. Some just don't like to change, some don't like the fact that the bullet comes out softer after being heat treated in the toaster oven for 10 or so minutes which drops a wheel weight alloy bullet down somewhere around 10-12 BHN. That's softern than some experienced shooters are comfortable with. I mentioned early on that you could water quench quickly right out of the toaster oven & gain a bit of hardness but not like dropping right out of a hot bullet mold. Dropping from a hot bullet mold can raise the BHN up to 17-19 BHN in 7-10 days.
Now, let me say again, I take no credit for inventing powder coating, that started several years ago as near as I can tell in Australia as we know it but other forms of coating have been going on for many, many years.
Something else I've said for quite a while is that powder coating is like the "poor" man's gas check & it is, allowing the shooter to shoot a somewhat softer bullet as higher velocities without a gas check. Do the water quenching right out of the toaster oven & you can run even faster. Now, here's the clincher! What if you are shooting heavy loads & need even harder bullets but still want to powder coat them. Simple answer, don't use wheel weights.......Use linotype, now you're going to say it's too hard & will shatter & you're right but remember what I said about pure lead, it won't heat treat either, so mix linotype & lead, BINGO! Now you can create the perfect alloy for any velocity in any straight walled case. Whatever BHN goes in your toaster oven comes out of your toaster oven, just powder coat & shoot whatever velocity makes you happy. Plus your gun will remain clean, no smoke, clean cylinder after a full day of shooting & you can tweak the bullet diameter of your cast bullets by powder coating, what's not to like.
Dick
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Post by bushog on May 26, 2017 19:01:55 GMT -5
Thanks Dick!
There are hardness calculators(estimators) on the Castboolits forum for determining hardness of lead/antimony/tin alloys.......
This is helpful too if interested....http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 22:44:33 GMT -5
If you need a shot of remedial arsenic & antimony, the most common store bought source is magnum shotshell shot. The stuff you buy by the bag at the gun store. It cannot be "chilled" shot, it must say "magnum shot" on the bag. The smaller shot sizes seem to contain higher levels of both than the larger sizes.Chilled shot essentially has insignificant amounts of either. There are other, more exotic "refiners" available, but they start getting expensive from this point.
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Post by contender on May 28, 2017 8:47:38 GMT -5
Dick & I were discussing this a few days ago. I have to admit,,, I'd not given it any thought,, as I use an alloy that works quite well, and only a few of my calibers are pushed faster than 1200 fps. But I think the idea has merit,,, and should allow a caster more "options." I'm awaiting Dick's tests to see how it comes out.
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Post by cherokeetracker on May 28, 2017 16:06:12 GMT -5
Not that long ago Dick and I were discussing this same thing Via Pms and I told him how that I had "ice water" quenched some powder coated bullets ( using the Harbor Freight) red powder. I sized the bullets and loaded some and was intending to size the rest, when I got a call and had to leave town. I got back a couple of weeks later and started back on sizing the bullets. Even using, the Hornady Spray lube, it was very difficult to size. The bullets had gotten harder. How hard I do not know, but I had learned some, about this from Tank. Dick verified it for sure. As you read in his post that if you give them about 10 days they will get harder.
Now, shooting the bullets I have not had any problems, and the accuracy has been good. Also I have tried the Polymer coated bullets for Badman bullets. ( I do not cast ) The bullets that Badman offers are double coated and sized. Also they have a BHN of 15 which is hard enough. They advertise you can go up to 2000 FPS with their bullets. I have personally run the 130 gr in my 357 to 1400 fps with NO Leading. The 130 gr and the 157 gr (in 357) are good bullets. I did not want to try the 45 cal as this is not the bullet type, or the weight that I want.
They offer a 25 pc sample pack if you did not want to invest in larger amounts.
I like powder coating for several reasons. Accuracy, cleanliness, such as no smoke and no lead makes cleanup easier.
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Post by boolitdesigner on May 28, 2017 19:08:32 GMT -5
What if you are shooting heavy loads & need even harder bullets but still want to powder coat them. Simple answer, don't use wheel weights.......Use linotype, now you're going to say it's too hard & will shatter & you're right but remember what I said about pure lead, it won't heat treat either, so mix linotype & lead, BINGO! Now you can create the perfect alloy for any velocity in any straight walled case. Whatever BHN goes in your toaster oven comes out of your toaster oven, just powder coat & shoot whatever velocity makes you happy. Plus your gun will remain clean, no smoke, clean cylinder after a full day of shooting & you can tweak the bullet diameter of your cast bullets by powder coating, what's not to like. Dick A little information in addition to this......... Any alloy that has equal percentages of antimony and tin is referred to by some individuals as a balanced alloy. The tin binds the antimony and will not let it grow much of it's lattice structure which it normally would causing hardness and diameter growth. If the tin was much lower in percentage than the antimony, this binding wouldn't happen. You can do the same with reduced percentages in the mix if the tin and antimony are the same percentage. Another thing I've read by some users of powder coat is use at higher rifle level velocities (2,300 & up) show the problem of PC removal from the bore to be very, very hard to remove. If some one could confirm this or not, it would probably help others. |
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Post by cherokeetracker on May 29, 2017 10:04:52 GMT -5
What if you are shooting heavy loads & need even harder bullets but still want to powder coat them. Simple answer, don't use wheel weights.......Use linotype, now you're going to say it's too hard & will shatter & you're right but remember what I said about pure lead, it won't heat treat either, so mix linotype & lead, BINGO! Now you can create the perfect alloy for any velocity in any straight walled case. Whatever BHN goes in your toaster oven comes out of your toaster oven, just powder coat & shoot whatever velocity makes you happy. Plus your gun will remain clean, no smoke, clean cylinder after a full day of shooting & you can tweak the bullet diameter of your cast bullets by powder coating, what's not to like. Dick A little information in addition to this......... Any alloy that has equal percentages of antimony and tin is referred to by some individuals as a balanced alloy. The tin binds the antimony and will not let it grow much of it's lattice structure which it normally would causing hardness and diameter growth. If the tin was much lower in percentage than the antimony, this binding wouldn't happen. You can do the same with reduced percentages in the mix if the tin and antimony are the same percentage. Another thing I've read by some users of powder coat is use at higher rifle level velocities (2,300 & up) show the problem of PC removal from the bore to be very, very hard to remove. If some one could confirm this or not, it would probably help others. I am not going to be any help here, because I do not have anything that I will be going above 1400-1500 FPS. Also I would like to point out what I said earlier, on the Badman website they state that their bullets are good to 2000 fps. They are also touting that their bullets are double coated. 1 or 2 years ago Tank and I discussed this double coat. At that time the only reason we could see to do this was to coat a bullet that got missed somehow, or if during the process, maybe some rough handling, the coating was knocked off somehow. Anyway, I can see the reason a Manufacturer would do this since they have little control over loading. Also they would want to make sure that each bullet has enough coating. There is an emphasis placed on flaring the case, an ample amount, so that the Poly will not be scraped off. All this brings me to the question, Is there a velocity limit on Poly coat,, OR Powder coat? Also I cannot tell you if certain brands of powder coat are that much better than others. I do believe that Dick can tell us. I do believe he has tried 2-3 different brands. Just an observation, to relay,,, I have seen the target have red on it from where the powder coated bullets punched the paper. These had been running about 1400 fps and were the Badman poly coated,,,, So that makes me wonder if heat is doing a little work on them? I have seen the same thing from the Powder coated bullets that I had powder coated with the Harbor Freight powder. BTW: Those were run well over 1300 and possibly 1400 fps . I wish that I could have chronographed them, and would like to later when I can shoot when the wind is not blowing so hard. How come I am popping off about the velocity? Because I got the recipe from a well noted Gentleman here, who had chronographed the load, ( and we were using the same bullets). But he had used a 7 1/2" barrel and my little bisley is a 4 5/8 configuration. I didn't mean to stray from the subject here, and would like to see more experimenting or work done in this arena. I am looking forward to some 22 caliber bullets, Powder coated, and shot from an AR. I have shot lead from one and it is possible. But for me it was a dirty proposition. I would like to powder coat some and give it a good run. As of now I do not have any. If anyone here would like to make some arrangements to work with me on this, ( such as sell me some 40gr or 50gr) I will powder coat them and shoot them in an AR and give a report. Again, Dick has spoken of doing this.
One last thing to bring up and that is the subject of : Gas checked bullets that have been powder coated. I have done it and I know that Tank has done. Some may say that this defeats the purpose of powder coating. And that it is certainly not needed. I have shot bullets with and without a gas check that have been powder coated. Now I could not tell that much difference, and I am going to need to see if I could run some PCed bullets w/GC at higher velocities to LEARN and prove or disprove speculation that arises. I would hope that I would NOT have coating stuck in my barrel. I would like to hear or possibly see (photos) on this subject at hand. Tank and agreed that if a bullet is designed with a Gas check, then it should be used. If my memory serves me correct. If it doesn't, and Tank never said this, then God help me. But would the GC help clean any PC left in the barrel? I cannot answer that at the moment, but I would hope so.
Getting away from a Hi-jack and getting back to the quenching. I would rather have them at a higher BHN if I am going to run them at higher velocities. But I do not know enough about this to arrive at the best desired ratio or formula. Charles
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Post by sixshot on May 29, 2017 12:22:10 GMT -5
Charles, I haven't owned a rifle for over 20 years until a little over a year ago when I bought an AR 223 just for the sake of having one (Obama/Hillary) so I'm not much help in the rifle department although I had lots of them over the years. I do know that many shooters are driving powder coated bullets at quite high velocities in their rifles with great success but I can't quote their alloy offhand. I'm sure they are using gas checks though. I will repeat that I don't care to use gas checks except in my 327's & my 357 maximum & I run them fast, over 1,400 fps with no problems & fine accuracy. So far I've used 2 paints, Harbor Freight Red & Smokes Black & both have worked terrific, couldn't ask for any better results!
If I were ever to get back into rifles I would still use powder coated bullets & probably use a 308 with the Lyman #31141 FN bullet that weighs about 170 grs. for deer & on elk I would use either a 358 Winchester with a 200 gr. FN or a 338/06 & a 250 gr. powder coated FN cast slug. All would be zeroed 1 1/2" at 100 yds & I'd run them around 2300-2400 fps depending on accuracy & eat backstraps every year without fail.
The AR shooters that I've talked to love powder coated bullets in their AR's & are having zero problems with the gas ports plugging, etc. Shooting regular lubed bullets isn't worth the problems of plugging the gas port. I will get around to trying some powder coated bullets in my AR at some time but no longer have a mold. I used to have a #225415 Lyman I think it was but it's long gone.
Here's something you could try with a linotype/lead combination for high velocity heavy loads for hunting in the big bore sixguns. Use 2 parts linotype & 1 part lead, it will go into your casting furnace at about a 17 BHN, come out of the furnace at the same 17 BHN, come out of the toaster oven at a 17 BHN & will plenty hard enough to handle the heaviest loads from any of the big bore revolvers when powder coated. Nothing changes from start to finish. Wheel weights are becoming very hard to find & the newer WW's have less antimony than the older one's anyway so a linotype/lead mix might be easier for some casters to obtain. Tin is very expensive & isn't a great hardner, it's a good hardner but not nearly as good as antimony. Also for those that don't already know, the lead is necessary to make the linotype more ductile which helps a cast bullet give expansion at correct velocities.
As for shooting a gas check style bullet without the gas check, I just never do it. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't. If it's designed for a gas check you will almost always get better results using them.
Dick
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Post by boolitdesigner on May 29, 2017 13:47:27 GMT -5
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^......... The AR shooters that I've talked to love powder coated bullets in their AR's & are having zero problems with the gas ports plugging, etc. Shooting regular lubed bullets isn't worth the problems of plugging the gas port.
I can assure you that several of us shooting regular lubed bullets have absolutely no problems with gas port or gas system fouling. We shoot 5.56 and 7.62 semi-autos..... some with over 10 thousand rounds thru the barrels with very little wear or gas port ovaling. All loads run about 2,400 fps and are quite accurate.
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Post by sixshot on May 29, 2017 20:21:59 GMT -5
Good to know you can run regular lubed bullets 2,400 fps in your AR's without fouling the gas port. As mentioned I haven't shot any cast through mine but I will as soon as I get some. Are you shooting straight linotype or just quenched bullets? I'm assuming you're also using an "M" die also.
Dick
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Post by cherokeetracker on May 29, 2017 22:06:05 GMT -5
Dick I knew about your AR and Callshot getting one too. You forgot that you posted a photo on here with one of your Sons holding it. You had spoken of trying some PCed in it one day.
That's why I mentioned you might do it. Next to my pistols I still play with my lever guns. And I just may PC some 30 cal bullets I have. Also if I do I am going to quench them. But it will never see 23 or 2400fps.
Charles
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Post by boolitdesigner on May 30, 2017 10:28:02 GMT -5
Good to know you can run regular lubed bullets 2,400 fps in your AR's without fouling the gas port. As mentioned I haven't shot any cast through mine but I will as soon as I get some. Are you shooting straight linotype or just quenched bullets? I'm assuming you're also using an "M" die also. Dick Mihec 22 Nato lube/sized 0.227" with Hornady GC 50% WW / 50% soft lead water dropped and aged at least two weeks RCBS neck expander die.... not the M die I shoot duplexed 50 Cal and 20MM surplus powders. Mihec 30 Sil HP lube/sized 0.311" with Hornady GC same info for rest......... 2,400 fps chrono'd dependent on which barrel length used. |
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Post by sixshot on May 30, 2017 11:24:27 GMT -5
Takes care of the M die problem. What BHN are you getting after 2 weeks, perhaps 16-17? Don't hear of many shooters anymore than use a duplex load, interesting! Dick Casull would smile!
Dick
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Post by boolitdesigner on May 30, 2017 12:28:25 GMT -5
My hardness tester says about 19 BHN. Duplexing seems to bring out the nay-sayers in abundance. I've been doing so for the last 30 or so years with excellent results and very cheap shooting.
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Post by sixshot on May 30, 2017 16:38:45 GMT -5
Bet we'd really open a can of worms if we started talking about the old timers using tri-plex loads. Duplex loads are never a problem when done properly, most have never even heard of it. Back in Elmer's day it was quite common.
Dick
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