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Post by paul105 on May 8, 2017 8:16:07 GMT -5
Is there any problem loading/shooting .431 Jacketed Bullets in revolvers with .4295 cyl throats?
Thanks
Paul
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 8, 2017 9:04:28 GMT -5
Paul, I wouldn't call it the ideal situation. I am curious how you arrived at the .4295" measurement? Did you drive a lead slug through the throat and measure it with a micrometer? I'm quite sure I am preaching to the choir here, but a dial caliper is plus or minus .001" and isn't the ideal way to measure these things either.
If it fits in the throats, it will probably be OK but maybe you outta sneak up on it. I would get those throats corrected if it was me.
Who makes a .431" Jacketed bullet anyway? Without getting up to go look on my shelf I thought 44s were .430"?
Additionally, I just realized I no longer have your contact information in my phone. My old one died and took everybody with it. Please PM me all your information!!
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Post by paul105 on May 8, 2017 9:29:06 GMT -5
Fermin,
Plug gauges (minus) -- .429 go, .430 no go on all 5 throats. New M69 2.75".
Zero bullets -- .431 advertised (my clipers say .431). My Mitutoyo (sp?) says .431.
At this point not concerned about ideal, just want to make sure these are safe. They shoot real good in M69.
Contact infor PMed
Paul
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Post by Encore64 on May 8, 2017 9:33:32 GMT -5
My M69 4" has very tight throats as well. I just push the oversized jacketed bullets thru a .429" Lee Sizer Die. Works just fine.
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Post by paul105 on May 8, 2017 9:42:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the info.
I have the Lee push thru dies and that was going to be my next move. I'm lazy and didn't want to go thru the process if they are safe to shoot.
Paul
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cmillard
.375 Atomic
MOLON LABE
Posts: 1,951
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Post by cmillard on May 8, 2017 19:25:28 GMT -5
in my .45 bisley, prior to correcting the throats and some firelapping, shot 300 grain deep curls (for .454) extremely well. but when it came to lead, it shot horribly. the throats in my were pretty tight--5 of them being .450 and one being .449. after correcting throats and firelapping, 300 deep curls still shot amazing, but now the lead did as well. I think the jackets can spring back to size unlike lead (maybe that is not the best way to describe it)
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Post by bradshaw on May 9, 2017 6:30:40 GMT -5
Is there any problem loading/shooting .431 Jacketed Bullets in revolvers with .4295 cyl throats? Thanks Paul Paul.... the Sierra .4295 240 JHC and the lookalike Federal #44A 240 JHP have passed through chamber exits as tight as .426” in the Dan Wesson Arms M44 VH8 with astounding accuracy, tight enough to fill a coffee saucer from farther than two football fields + two end zones away, and done so with factory irons. Everything else about the revolver, everything except the tight throats, was pure as the driven snow, with the stock revolver with factor walnut birdied grip. The tight throats do not appear roller-burnished, but show very fine annular reamer signature with utter absence of scoring. There may be something to “springbuck” with a jacketed bullet. According to DWA’s Paul Brothers, Dan Wesson fired one of his revolvers with barrel removed from frame. My impression the revolver was a Model 15 .357 mag. Paul Brothers said the recovered bullet showed dramatic expansion at from the base. This event represents expansion, not springback. The critical factor in avoiding a pressure spike is to allow the case neck to release the bullet without restriction, whether a straight wall or bottleneck case. To squeeze the case between bullet and chamber wall spikes pressure. David Bradshaw
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Post by paul105 on May 9, 2017 8:08:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies.
David,
How do you check for bullet restriction (case squeezed between bullet and chamber)? Never experienced this condition (that I know of) in 50+ years of reloading many thousands of rounds of handgun ammo in many calibers. (notice that I said "that I know of").
Thanks,
Paul
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Post by bradshaw on May 9, 2017 9:01:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. David, How do you check for bullet restriction (case squeezed between bullet and chamber)? Thanks, Paul ***** Paul, Answer: cartridges drop into chamber without restriction. To test with handholds----partially crimp a few rounds, just enough to straighten belled case; rounds should drop into chamber sufficient for free cylinder rotation. Note: tight throats do not freely admit the bearing surface of a bullet. A proper revolver chamber is deep enough to allow not only for the case to freely release the bullet, it is deep enough to allow the case to lengthen, or grow. The accuracy possible with jacketed from tight throats may be impossible with cast. The cylinder window of the Dan Wesson .44 Mag cited earlier was vapor-blasted with coppery wash. Cast bullets were not shot in that revolver. David Bradshaw
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Post by paul105 on May 9, 2017 9:20:43 GMT -5
Thanks David.
Rounds chamber freely with/without crimp.
No copper wash anywhere I can see.
Paul
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Post by bradshaw on May 9, 2017 10:49:07 GMT -5
Paul.... to an accurate jacketed bullet, diameter of the chamber EXIT HOLE or THROAT seems less critical than a few other factors, specifically, forcing cone, and groove diameter. Note on groove diameter firm is always better than loose. Individual specifications often matter less than the balance of the whole. Countess handgun silhouette matches were won with .432 throats in Smith & Wesson Model 29s and Ruger Super Blackhawks, add in The Interterms Virginian Silhouette Dragoon, as these sixguns hurled .4295 and .430” jacketed bullets downrange. Manu of these revolvers were capable if 6-inch groups @ 200 meter, accuracy critical to top performances.
Proper alignment of the bullet in the bore depends on entering the rifling straight----and staying straight. Obviously, a bullet which is out of balance standing still cannot be made to fly straight. Fortunately, a good revolver bullet tolerates a bit of imperfection, to include a few thousandths chamber-to-bore offset (misalignment), or chamber exits two or three thousandths over bullet diameter. Accuracy does not tolerate a bad forcing cone, excessive chamber/bore offset, excessive throat diameter, a wavy bore. Nor does accuracy tolerate an oversize groove diameter----unless everything else is perfect. Even then, the oversize groove frustrates a sharpshooter when the chips are down.
We’ve answered the safety issue. Now for my question: what exactly is your jacketed .431” bullet? David Bradshaw
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Post by bula on May 9, 2017 12:24:31 GMT -5
my m69 throats seem same. no bullets here will drop thru and .429 stuff needsa firm push. Yet using factory jacketed by Speer and Hornady and a Copper Washed old cast bullet from my Nat'l Bullet stash thT GO .430. Loaded rounds are loose in the chambers and loads starting loads though.
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Post by paul105 on May 9, 2017 12:37:47 GMT -5
David, These are Zero bullets www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RZD&Category_Code=ZBJ-44MAGI have a little over 4,000 of these. Here is a group I shot with my new 2.75" S&W M69 (L Frame .44 mag). I'm sure I pulled the "wide left" one. I know this is only 25 yds, but I've only had the gun for a week and haven't really decided on a load. For whatever reason, I shot this gun very well (for me anyway). Really like it. I have the Hogue 500 X Frame grips on mine -- problem with the bone at the base of my thumb that really gets hammered by the "hump" with other grips. Yesterday, checking POI of 240gr XTP, 10.2gr CFE-P at 25 yds over range bag -- 1 lower right and 2 upper left shot over range bag. Other two shot double action at about 7 yds. Looks like the little gun wants to shoot. Paul
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Post by bradshaw on May 9, 2017 16:54:56 GMT -5
Paul.... interesting 2” lateral difference between .44 240 JSP and 260 WFNGC @ 25 yards. There is not a lick of difference in group size and both a very good, especially from a 2-3/4” barrel. (The operative feature here is not barrel length, it’s shooter control of a snub nose .44 Magnum.) My guess is that a slight increase in BARREL TORQUE in conjunction with slightly greater BARREL TIME of the 260 WFNGC account for the heavier bullet’s higher & leftward POI (Point of Impact).
I never assume I threw a shot, preferring always to CALL the shot. Shots made with a lousy bullet cannot be called. While it isn’t possible to call each shot all the time, the determination makes for better shooting. To hone or ream chamber exits for one bullet doesn’t make sense. However, to carefully open the exit holes to .431” won’t hurt anything. We state “carefully” because a reamer casually dropped into a hole may produce an eccentric axis, creating or aggravating throat-to-bore misalignment. Before launching into the ream or hone adventure, bag the revolver again at 25 yards, and then 50 yards, if possible. You may find there is no need to open the throats. If one bullet groups tight @ 50 yards, while the other bullets scatters, the scatter-shooting bullet may lack balance to for straight flight. A charge of 22 to 23.5 grains is well within the accuracy zone of Hodgdon 110 and Winchester 296. David Bradshaw
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Post by paul105 on May 9, 2017 18:15:41 GMT -5
David,
Sorry, left out critical info -- I adjusted windage (don't remember if 3 or 4 clicks left) after 240gr JFP Zero and before shooting 260gr WFNGC.
I've been shooting the gun out to 70 yds offhand on steel with satisfying results. I'll try to bench it on paper at 50 yds with several different bullets and see what happens.
Paul
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