max distance where accuracy drops off

[whiterabbit]

You guys ever get to a point where you just cannot shoot?

I'm having a heck of a time building an accurate load for 25 yard shooting. It could be me, the gun, or the ammo. Got a good thing going at about 15 yards, but past that and it kinda starts to fall apart.

I can shoot 25 and beyond with a SCOPE on a revolver, but once I go to straight irons, I just can't get those tight groups I want.

Any way to parse me vs gun vs ammo? I only know one other guy who shoots "as good as me", so I can't just hand it to someone else to shoot...

Or at least parse out the load? I'd love to figure out if the load is good or load and gun so I could just crank it out in bulk and practice, practice, practice...

[whiterabbit]

to put some numbers on this, on a very very good day I think I can shoot a 50 score (5 rounds) on a 25 yard rapid fire NRA target (that's what, a 3-3.5" 10 ring?), but fairly consistently shoot a 49 or 48 at 15 yards.

Not even worth scoring at 25 yards, and the group sizes are 6-9 inches.

that's a big jump for 10 extra yards!

[seancass]

Is it my eyes:
Scope it and get out doors. Change targets.

Is it my hands:
Benchrest.

Is it my loads:
Benchrest plus load development, maybe a factory load if you're into that sort of thing.

Is it the gun:
Probably not.

Just commenting for discussion...

Edit: The odds of a load changing dramatically between 15 and 25 yards are slim. My guess is that it's your eyes, or your hands losing confidence in themselves. Both are fixable, methinks.

[JSilva]

In my experience, best way to separate hardware (gun and ammo) from software (operator) is to remove the software and chuck it in a machine rest.
Once you have a baseline of performance in perfect conditions, tweaking to fit becomes easier.

Just my opinion from doing exactly that.

[jsh]

Most everything looks good up close.
The further away you go the larger the issue or issues show up.
Grip is everything. Your grip and follow through.
Do not be afraid to change up targets. I like one that ends up as wide as my front sight at said distance. I dislike a round target on top of a square front.
I don't want any of those neon colored front or rear sights when I am looking for the best.
Consistent, no matter if your right or wrong in stance or hold, every time it has to be the same.

Does this all come at once or are there some together and then the rest all over the place. I know of a shooter that has to look at every stinking shot. A little left, right or high or low, they make no sight corrections. The mind and eye does this for them. They then get flustered and it all goes to crap pretty quick and lose all discipline. I took the blasted spotting scope away from them and said shoot. I know they can, and guess what they did. Yet the next match the scope is out again and so is the problem.
Make every shot the first shot. Shoot one round. Lay the gun down, breath,close your eyes relax. Shot number two and so on. If everything is not right, start over. Very few people have the hand size and strength and discipline to shoot DA or SA with out repositioning their grip. There is no race nor hurry when looking for small groups,unless in a match of some type with a dead line.
Jeff

[webber]

If one can accurately shoot at 15 yards one can accirately shoot at 25. If you can't shoot well at 25 you cannot shoot well at 15.
If you can shoot well at 15 with a scope you can shoot well at 25 with a scope.
If you can shoot well at 15 with iron sights you can shoot well with iron sights at 25.
Unless there is just some unimaginable problem with a load there is no explanation other than you are having psychological issues with the increasing distance.
If you can hold good sight alignment at 15 yards with iron sights then you can hold good sight alignment at 50 with iron sights.
Sight alignment does not trump trigger control regardless of what some may think.
Seeing the increase of the swing of the sights in offhand at the ever increasing distances causes some to "grab"the trigger as the sights swing through the center of the bull.
You can have the worlds best sight alignment up to the " grab" but you will ruin it with the "grab".
Seeing the extra movement at the longer distances cause some people to stress out over seeing it and causes them to do goofy things with proper control of the trigger.
If your loads will hold its accuracy out to the longer distances and you are capable of shooting 9.55 MOA at 15 yards you can shoot 9.55 MOA at the longer distances as long as the loads hold its accuracy standard.
Working up the load with a scope and then taking it off to use iron sights there after may be an option to someone so inclined to do so.
Then if accuracy fall off significantly then one is doing some squirrelly things with the trigger as long as you are capable of seeing your front sight blade in the center of the rear sight notch and,the top of the front blade level with the top of the rear sight.
If you cannot do that due to some problem with vision then maybe a scope or a dot sight is the most likely choice for that person.
Put up a blank piece of card stock paper 8.5 X11 at 25 yards and shoot at the center of it without a Bullseye on it and shoot a group.
Or put up a piece of card stock paper fire one shot and then overlay a fresh piece accurately over it and fire another then repete the exercise till a cylinder full is fired and look at the first paper to see your group and see if you have target panic.
If you have target panic that is something to be addressed separately.

[bradshaw]

"Got a good thing going at about 15 yards, but past that and it kinda starts to fall apart.

I can shoot 25 and beyond with a SCOPE on a revolver, but once I go to straight irons, I just can't get those tight groups I want.”
----whiterabbit

*****

Given the information----specifically, lack thereof----let us start with a couple of ABSOLUTE ASSUMPTIONS:
* You shoot a single action, a double action, and an automatic with exactly the same proficiency.
* You shoot all the calibers you own with exactly the same proficiency.
* You get essentially the same result offhand as you do from a rest or braced position.

Since you shoot “25 and beyond with a scope.." yet the result deteriorates with irons, let’s look at your eyes and sighting technique:
* Do you see a good sight picture, with well defined front sight?
* Are you near sighted? If so, are you unable to register the target at longer distance?
* Do you have astigmatism?
* Do you shoot with reading glasses? If so, DON’T.
* Do you have a prescription specifically to clarify the SIGHT PICTURE and focus the FRONT SIGHT?
* Do you consciously or subconsciously want to see the target at the MOMENT of SQUEEZE?
* Does a distant target pull your eye from the front sight at the MOMENT of FIRE?

Note: ammo does not know whether a gun has iron sights or a scope. Since your load is “accurate” beyond 15 yards with a scope, the ammo is ready to do the same with irons. The scope is your friend, as it provides a clue.

Now we’ll throw out one technical bone: if groups @ 15 yards turn to trash @ 25 yards with both scope & iron sights (providing scope or mount are good), a severe loss of group between 15 & 25 yards implicates the gun, not the ammo. I said “implicates;” the rule is not absolute.

The object of guidance is to improve skill, and to help identify problems through a process of elimination.
David Bradshaw

[jsh]

Does anyone have the link to or picture with the round target cut up in slices? It is a pretty good tool to give one an idea of what may be going on.

Target panic, I like that term.
I admit to basically pushing or dropping the gun wanting to see my hits. A very bad habit for sure. I use a very slow load to boot, so that magnifies the issue even more. I learned follow through very quickly.

[webber]

"Target Panic"

Shooters, unless they are near a shooting "machine" like Mr Bradshaw and a very few others who have excellent advice to give, are simply a silly bunch.
We want each shot to go in the center of the bull. We want every shot to stay in a perfectly round cluster that will mesmerize other shooters with its small square inch area that it will take up.
We want the perfect load. We want the perfect handgun dimensionally.
In other words we want it all knowing we can't have it all.
We put the gun up, get the sights on target, and in our zeal, zest or plain goofiness of our mind we want the shots to go into the paper or on the steel in a miraculous group so we panic when we see the target knowing that little man in our brain is trying to tell us we are full,of it. Thus "Target Panic" sets in because the target records how goofy we can be. Our desires drive us to do stupid things which will give us a target, group or ringing of the steel that we hope no one else at the range sees before we can cover up the evidence the target records for all to see who will just look.
Ever turn your spotting scope to look at other people's targets? I sure do. Sometimes they make me proud of my shooting knowing the have more "issues" than I do.

[todddoyka]

my accuracy drops at 30 yards. 25 yards, i do it at the bench at 3/4", off hand it goes around 1 3/4 - 2 1/2".    at 30 yards,  then it began to tear itself apart.  i had a stroke several years ago, and it left me with only one arm/leg. so i'm able to shoot it one handed, the left one. (i'm cross eyed dominant and the left hand is my shooting hand) anyway, it doesn't matter whether if my 44 is benched or not, i can only do 2-3 shots at 30 yards(6" target). the other shots(3 - 4) go where ever. i know its not the revolver or its load(ruger sbh 4 5/8" barrel 44sp with 250gr mihek hp{40 to 1} under 7.0gr of unique). i know its not my eyes, 20/20 in the right, 20/15 in the left. 

i'm going to keep on trying 30 yards, but 25 yards is good enuff for me and the deer!!!

[paulg]

You're not alone. I received lots of good advice when I posed a similar quandary several weeks ago. I backed off to a good ole .22 single six. One great tip I got was start close and work my way out. I'm still working on 12 yards. Sometimes I go back to 3 yards. Even with a .22 I get tired after about 15-20 minutes and give it a rest. I have a long way to go to use my ammo (factory or my own) or my guns as an excuse for poor accuracy with a handgun.
You might find some good help in this thread:
singleactions.proboards.com/thread/19006/harsh-reality

[todddoyka]

Feb 25, 2017 18:30:26 GMT -5 paulg said:

You're not alone. I received lots of good advice when I posed a similar quandary several weeks ago. I backed off to a good ole .22 single six. One great tip I got was start close and work my way out. I'm still working on 12 yards. Sometimes I go back to 3 yards. Even with a .22 I get tired after about 15-20 minutes and give it a rest. I have a long way to go to use my ammo (factory or my own) or my guns as an excuse for poor accuracy with a handgun.
You might find some good help in this thread:
singleactions.proboards.com/thread/19006/harsh-reality

i think it will!!!

[whiterabbit]

Feb 25, 2017 7:49:45 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

"Got a good thing going at about 15 yards, but past that and it kinda starts to fall apart.

I can shoot 25 and beyond with a SCOPE on a revolver, but once I go to straight irons, I just can't get those tight groups I want.”
----whiterabbit

*****

Given the information----specifically, lack thereof----let us start with a couple of ABSOLUTE ASSUMPTIONS:
* You shoot a single action, a double action, and an automatic with exactly the same proficiency.
* You shoot all the calibers you own with exactly the same proficiency.
* You get essentially the same result offhand as you do from a rest or braced position.

Since you shoot “25 and beyond with a scope.." yet the result deteriorates with irons, let’s look at your eyes and sighting technique:
* Do you see a good sight picture, with well defined front sight?
* Are you near sighted? If so, are you unable to register the target at longer distance?
* Do you have astigmatism?
* Do you shoot with reading glasses? If so, DON’T.
* Do you have a prescription specifically to clarify the SIGHT PICTURE and focus the FRONT SIGHT?
* Do you consciously or subconsciously want to see the target at the MOMENT of SQUEEZE?
* Does a distant target pull your eye from the front sight at the MOMENT of FIRE?

Note: ammo does not know whether a gun has iron sights or a scope. Since your load is “accurate” beyond 15 yards with a scope, the ammo is ready to do the same with irons. The scope is your friend, as it provides a clue.

Now we’ll throw out one technical bone: if groups @ 15 yards turn to trash @ 25 yards with both scope & iron sights (providing scope or mount are good), a severe loss of group between 15 & 25 yards implicates the gun, not the ammo. I said “implicates;” the rule is not absolute.

The object of guidance is to improve skill, and to help identify problems through a process of elimination.
David Bradshaw

Shoot Bradshaw, I should have been more specific. I have a separate revolver (BFR) with a scope on it that shoots out to 100 yards accurately (in my hands). Though I've only "shot for groups" offhand as far as 25, at 100 it's off a rest for groups and offhand just for hits on steel. Shoots lights out in every way. For my other issue, it's irons on a ruger revolver using a different cartridge, bullet, etc. The Ruger does not have a scope mount, no D&T on the top strap, and will not drill the top strap for scope mounts.

I would like to say your assumptions are widely correct. I can't speak to the first one, I don't shoot pistol much except for single action revolvers. I've had no issues shooting autoloaders accurately. but it's not a common past time. Given that I shoot a BFR, own and shoot a safari cartridge rifle, I'd like to say I can shoot all call I own with the same potential for proficiency. For the ruger issue, same result from a rest or offhand. For other guns, generally, rested is better. Generally.

For the others:

-I believe the sight picture is good, but are there specific criteria I can evaluate, other than "I feel it's good"? or is that enough?
-near sighted. The target is blurry at 25 yards. But I shoot my muzzleloader rifle with irons at 50 yards with no issue..... Or is that completely different, excepting the obvious difference in sight radius?
-no astigmatism
-I need my glasses to drive a car. I wear them as long as I am awake. 20-300 vision.
-I have a general corrective prescription. No special shooting glasses (other than I have prescription safety glasses using my general prescription)
-These last two I will have to pay attention to. I have not thought about them much. I always know when I goof and have a flier. Does that mean I am likely focusing on the target at the moment of fire?

[jsh]

I am also near sighted and have astigmatism.
I am now one of those guys I used to chuckle at, get to the line, load command is given, get in position and WTH, wrote my glasses, they are in the car, the fire command is given half way to the car, lol.
I now have two sets of shooting glasses, one in my IHMSA box the other in my range bag.
I had a heck of a time getting a pair of glasses to shoot trap with.
Hunting I can get by good with my every day glasses. This new last pair the got the bifocal messed up and had to have it changed.
Jeff

[bradshaw]

"Shoot Bradshaw, I should have been more specific.”
-----whiterabbit

*****

white rabbit.... Correct. Specifics are a big deal when the subject is TECHNIQUE, GUNS, and AMMO.
No one shoots offhand as well as from a rest. Perhaps close for one shot, perhaps a few shots, but not for endurance.

“... I shoot a BFR and... shoot a safari cartridge rifle...”----we still don’t know what calibers you shoot! As for proficiency with different guns and action types, many persons shoot a given gun more accurately than another. For example, given a single action and a double action with the same intrinsic accuracy, shooter "A” may do better with the double action, while shooter “B” does better with the single action. Then, along comes shooter “C,” who shoots the two revolvers equally. This difference can occur at the Master level, as well as lesser skill levels.

You are more specific when it comes to your glasses, which correct for "20-300 vision.” Without knowing the image your eyes splash on your brain, a description of your sight picture----specifically the sharpness of your front sight----would be helpful. Once a target within its environment is identified as appropriate for fire, it goes to sleep in the mind. Fix the target in your mind. Your eye now fastens the TOP of the FRONT SIGHT to the fuzzy target, SQUARES FRONT & REAR SIGHTS, and strops the front sight like a razor. SQUEEZING. This picture remains in the mind beyond the blur of recoil.

A so-called combat doctrine which insists the eye never depart the front sight is cornpone. The human eye can no more follow the front sight of a recoiling .44 Mag or .454 Casull or .500 Linebaugh than it can ride the jab of Muhammad Ali. If your eyes can follow that recoil, yours eyes are good enough to scream through trees like a wood duck at 40 mph without dusting a feather. This is not to say that the lowly human eye is not an instrument of marksmanship. The eye lives at service to the mind. Just as the target is the arbiter of accuracy, the mind is the arbiter of marksmanship. To that end, the mind needs help. The mind tells the eye where to focus. If it takes prescription glass to register the picture and chisel the front sight, our marksmanship deserves that help.

Performance is important.
David Bradshaw