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Post by whiterabbit on Apr 1, 2016 0:51:29 GMT -5
So, noone does it so I assume it's hare-brained. The question is, why?
45 acp is off in case diameter by .004", not much at all. Once could conceive of a sleeve .387 inches long sized to the throat of the cylinder. Assuming sufficiently crisp edged, I imagine it would work to headspace.
So my first question is, is .004" too much, and let a 45 acp fish around in there? And if the answer to that is "no", then why is it a stupid idea?
(I think my 460 BFR has chambers that are .004" larger than a 460 case. my brass gets pretty largely bulged)
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Post by buckelliott on Apr 1, 2016 19:52:22 GMT -5
You'd be better off to start with a .44 mag cylinder.
FWIW, actual measurements of .45 Colt and .45 ACP case diameters are virtually the same..
Chambers normally run .004" to .008" over case diameter..
.45 ACP pressures are nowhere near .460 norms..
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Post by alukban on Apr 1, 2016 20:00:46 GMT -5
What I always wondered is why one cannot have "single shot clips" or "sixth-moon clips" to allow .45 ACP use in .45 Colt SA cylinders?
Yep, rim thicknesses look like they'll work with a long enough firing pin...
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Post by theoldredneck on Apr 1, 2016 20:39:56 GMT -5
O ring in case extractor groove for single rounds
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erich
.30 Stingray
Posts: 393
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Post by erich on Apr 2, 2016 21:59:37 GMT -5
O ring in case extractor groove for single rounds Never could make this work in my Bond derringer...wound up buying .45 ACP barrels. Sent from my VS980 4G using proboards |
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Post by theoldredneck on Apr 3, 2016 4:29:32 GMT -5
Never tried one of those, just a couple of revolvers over the years. It does require finding the right size o ring for extractor groove to set where it needs to.
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 3, 2016 8:46:34 GMT -5
So, noone does it so I assume it's hare-brained. The question is, why? 45 acp is off in case diameter by .004", not much at all. Once could conceive of a sleeve .387 inches long sized to the throat of the cylinder. Assuming sufficiently crisp edged, I imagine it would work to headspace. So my first question is, is .004" too much, and let a 45 acp fish around in there? And if the answer to that is "no", then why is it a stupid idea? (I think my 460 BFR has chambers that are .004" larger than a 460 case. my brass gets pretty largely bulged) *** whiterabbit.... To begin, let me assure you I've never done it. The six-shot .45 chamber wall is thin enough without further thinning for sleeve----certain to weaken the arrangement. Your sleeve may come loose and act as a floating chamber, miserably locking the cylinder. I have seen old Peacemakers sleeved in barrel and cylinder for the .22 Long Rifle, which, with superbly made Colt and Smith & Wesson double action .22s available, I could not understand. (Such a conversion should have guaranteed accuracy better than the DA's; of course, accuracy was never discussed.) My experience with chamber sleeves in a revolver is limited to the S&W M-53 .22 Jet, a doomed attempt to combine a necked down .357 Mag and the .22 Long Rifle in the same cylinder. The .22 Jet issued a piercing muzzle blast, similar to standing too close to C-4, without compensatory velocity, while accuracy from the mild mannered sleeved Long Rifle could not dance with the sweet shooting K-22. Your question begs another question: why not dedicate the time it takes to wrap your skull around this scheme to the serious meditation of throwing lead? David Bradshaw |
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Post by whiterabbit on Apr 4, 2016 10:17:04 GMT -5
David sir, I did not mean sleeve the whole chamber. I just meant seat a ring about .387 inches long in there, push up against the front of the chamber. This would provide a lip for the 45 acp neck to sit on for proper headspace. The cylinder walls would be unmolested. As would the entire cylinder, as with a pick and some solvent and some time (maybe some heat) the sleeves could be extracted and the cylinder used for 45 colt again.
That's the idea, and it seems to me that it could be feasible. It's clearly not (or else it would have been done already and published), but it's not so clear why that wouldn't work.
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 4, 2016 12:37:07 GMT -5
whitrabbit.... do you mean a sleeve for the .45 Colt chamber for the .45 ACP to headspace against? If so, a separte .45 ACP cylinder is the solution. Once you glue or solder a sleeve inside the chamber there may be hell to pay trying to remove it and residual "gradou" later. And then there is the problem of headspacing. This is an exact dimension, and for the sake of accuracy and reliability each chamber must headspace the same. Note that for a cylinder counterbored for the case to sit flush with the cylinder, headspacing is accomplished on the rear face of the cylinder. Whereas,with counterbored or recessed rims each chamber is individually headspaced.
Aside from an efficient cartridge and plentiful ammunition, the great feature of the single action .45 ACP resides in the one-at-a-time extraction, which doesn't care whether or not the case has a rim.
My vote is for the versatility of a second cylinder chambered in .45 ACP.
David Bradshaw
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Post by whiterabbit on Apr 4, 2016 13:17:33 GMT -5
Definitely doable, but at high cost, compared to a sleeve. A sleeve could be friction fit as well, could it not? I imagine after the first few firings that fouling or lead will keep the sleeve in there fairly securely.
I assume that non 45 acp cylinders are in the $150 range, shipped to me? (ie 44 mag or smaller take-off). Then there is cost to ream which either costs me tooling or additional expense, and for tooling only if I can do it as per the Ruger shop manual IE align in the mill then plunge cut each chamber separately. Then fit the cylinder which I assume at least involves facing the cylinder in the lathe for matching BC gap, fitting end shake which is easy enough, I have that tooling already...
But the three things that really keep me from cutting my own is lack of proper reamers (throat, chamber + bushings), proper tooling (cylinder fixture, sufficient pin gauges), and cylinder expense. That makes it a roughly $500 project when all is said and done.
then my head tells me a sleeve isn't inherently wrong.... (especially for ~$20 in stainless or 4130 steel)
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David, please do not misunderstand the way I am discussing this subject. It's a thought experiment, though one that admittedly can lead to physical experimentation. I understood going into this that the recommendation would be to fit a 45 acp cylinder rather than sleeve a 45 colt cylinder. That that would be by far the "best" solution. What I'm after is a keen understanding of why. The pitfalls of sleeving, the likely consequences. That would give me the mechanical understanding of why noone ever does it. That's the thought experiment result I'm looking for.
As always, I appreciate your and others insight.
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Post by cas on Apr 4, 2016 16:16:17 GMT -5
A S&W .45ACP moon clip will line up and chamber on a Ruger Blackhawk .45ACP cylinder. When I would polish the throats after reaming I would put empty cases in the chambers that way. So I assume they would chamber in a .45 Colt cylinder. Of course when I still had a 45 Colt Ruger, I never did bothered to see if the cylinder would fit back in the gun with the moon clip there. Someone here should try it.  |
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mergus
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 67
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Post by mergus on Apr 4, 2016 16:45:23 GMT -5
Some years back, maybe a dozen years ago, I bought a Pre War USFA in .45 LC with a second cylinder in .45 ACP. I figured I had the wonderful world of .45 covered in what was a financial stretch gun for me. The LC cylinder was a dream. Chamber, shoot, unload, all without incidence. The ACP chamber on the other hand cannot get through 6 rounds with out it getting so dirty that the next 6 won't chamber without lots of pushing on the back of the cartridge to get it to seat all the way.
I'm curious, do others have that same problem?
Mergus
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Post by whiterabbit on Apr 4, 2016 18:41:17 GMT -5
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Post by eagle1899 on Apr 4, 2016 18:48:00 GMT -5
I've not had a problem shooting 45Acp's in my late model Blackhawk convertible.
200SWC with 5.0 Promo and 255SWC with 8.0 BlueDot.
It does get dirty faster than 45Colts but function is fine.
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 4, 2016 20:51:33 GMT -5
cas.... as a.45 ACP case headspaces against a sharp shoulder in the Blackhawk chamber, the rim----unsupported, of course----protrudes at the rear of the cylinder. The extractor groove doesn't shoe at all, and there is no room for a clip of any kind. With the Freedom Arms .45 ACP cylinder the casehead is flush with the rear face of the cylinder. It is true, cast & greased .45 ACP fouls a revolver faster than .45 Colt. That is no argument against firing ACP in your Ruger or Freedom Arms. The ACP is a spectacular practice, small game, and training cartridge. The Ruger 03 and various Blackhawks enjoy dining on cast .45 ACP without a lick of indigestion.
mergus.... rapid fouling of the .45 ACP cylinder chambers on your USFA suggests possible tightness or roughness in the chambers. A sharp shoulder with tight exit holes will do it, accompanied by leading.
David Bradshaw
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