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Post by Lee Martin on Apr 8, 2013 15:57:18 GMT -5
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 8, 2013 17:11:33 GMT -5
Posting, with assistance of Lee Martin, a look at experimental .357 Maximum ammo. Were the cartridge introduced today, it would properly be called the .357 RUGER MAXIMUM. Basically the development of William Ruger, Jr., whose father turned him loose to develop the gun, with input from an IHMSA silhouetter.
Nine photos, from top: 1) Original prototype .357 Maximum (on left) 1.490" case. Final Remington experimental cartridge with 1.605" case.
2) Remington 1.490" case compared with experimental 1.605", which became final SAAMI case.
3) Remington experiemental ammo, which Bill Ruger, Jr., and I burned by the 1000 rd. case in SRM prototype revolvers and a transfer bar Hawkeye single shot. When a Remington engineer asked Ruger, Jr., how the ammunition was being shot. Ruger said, "We're shooting it in the revolvers."
"What? You're not shooting it in a box?"
"No," answered Ruger, Jr., "And Bradshaw's shooting it at 100 and 200 yards."
Some of the experimental ammo tested 75.000 psi and higher.
4) Maximums were built in the Southport, Connecticut factory.
5) Experimental ammo predates the first production revolver.
6) Federal Cartridge got into the act, supplying Bradshaw with experimental ammo stamped "357 Super Magnum," which he brought to the Ruger farm in New Hampshire.
7) Federal, at my instigation and working with Hugh Reed, brought out first .357 Maximum 180 JHP. Same bullet later introduced in Federal .357 Magnum as code 357G.
8) L-to-R: * First Rem experimental load----1.490" case; 158 JHP. * First Federal experimental load----1.545" case; Sierra 170 FMJ (77,000 psi). * Rem experimental load----1.605" case. * Fed first production load----1.605" case; Fed 180 JHP. * Speer fully developed pre-production 200 TMJ (electro-plate jacket); Fed 1.605" case.
9) First production Blackhawk .357 Maximum.
David Bradshaw
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jwp475
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,084
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Post by jwp475 on Apr 8, 2013 18:23:57 GMT -5
Very interesting and informative
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ericp
.327 Meteor
Posts: 503
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Post by ericp on Apr 8, 2013 18:33:34 GMT -5
Very cool. Was there a specific performance goal in mind that led to the longer case being adopted or was it to be more in line with the Gates design? Or some other reason?
Eric
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Post by hoover on Apr 8, 2013 18:59:07 GMT -5
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 8, 2013 22:11:33 GMT -5
The .357 Maximum is the work of William Ruger, Jr., and his father. I have looked very hard at this and found no evidence of it being anything but a Ruger original. Remington loaded the first 1.490" brass in the 75,000 psi range and was alarmed to find Ruger, Jr., and I shooting everything Remington sent right out of the SRM revolvers. Use of rifle primers came directly from BLANKING (extrusion of primer into firing pin hole) with small pistol primers.
Not only were the rounds hot, we at times shot the revolvers as fast as we could load and unload. Revolvers loaded hot and shot fast get HOT.
Elgin Gates may have dreamed of a hot rod .357, but I was never shown evidence of one, nor heard of such. Elgin developed the .375 and .445 Super Mags. The .357 Maximum remains 100% Ruger. During its development, I was the only conduit for the .357 Maximum to the outside world. Elgin Gates latched on to the Maximum, not the other way around.
Gates had a close association with Federal president Bill Horn. Bill Horn had great respect for Gates as trophy hunter and trap champion, and saw handgun silhouette as a potential proving ground for Federal ammunition. To that end, Horn put me in contact with Hugh Reed and others at Federal. Which led to collaborative efforts which paid off in great ammo, brass, primers, and several handgun records.
To set the record straight, the .357 Maximum was conceived by William Ruger, Sr., and Jr. A silhouette and hunting revolver cartridge capable of serious performance with recoil modest enough for long strings of fire.
While Federal's involvement in the Maximum infuriated Bill Ruger, Sr., as I would show up with experimental ammunition while Remington dragged its feet. The SAAMI collaboration was strictly Ruger and Remington. However, Federal proved it could be as fast on its feet as Ruger.
Look carefully at the ammo pictured above. The first Federal experimental ammo headstamped "357 Super Magnum" is loaded in a 1.545" case. If the 1.605" case had existed, it would have been loaded.
Bill Ruger, Jr., wanted a longer frame. I held out for the Maximum frame as exemplified in his prototypes SRM-1 through SRM-7. Why? The lower beam of the cylinder frame thins as the frame is lengthened. I worried the cylinder frame would become too thin and weak. And I felt the revolver must be strong aesthetically. Bill, Jr., wasn't worried at all. Nor was his father.
Ruger, Jr., was ready to try a 1.660" case, which would have necessitated a longer cylinder frame.
To sugar it off, the .357 Maximum is the parent cartridge. The .375 Super Mag, .445 SM, and .414 SM are its children: Ruger----.357 Maximum. Gates----.375, .445, .414 Super Mag.
David Bradshaw
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 8, 2013 22:21:20 GMT -5
Eric.... If there was a specific velocity goal for the .357 Maximum, I didn't hear it. There would be no question 180 and 200 grain bullets should do well with .44 mag powder capacity. 180 grain bullets easily top 300 fps faster than same slug in .357 mag. David Bradshaw
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dmize
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 2,825
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Post by dmize on Apr 8, 2013 22:28:46 GMT -5
Wow only 75,000 psi??? Holy crap!!!!!!!!
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Post by whitworth on Apr 9, 2013 6:11:08 GMT -5
Wow only 75,000 psi??? Holy crap!!!!!!!! up to 77,000 psi...... ;D
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ericp
.327 Meteor
Posts: 503
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Post by ericp on Apr 9, 2013 18:54:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the detail, this sort of development stuff is super interesting to me.
Eric
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dan
.30 Stingray
Posts: 112
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Post by dan on Apr 9, 2013 19:07:00 GMT -5
Very interesting great info after reading this yesterday and today I started looking on line for 357 maximum.
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dan
.30 Stingray
Posts: 112
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Post by dan on Apr 9, 2013 19:07:51 GMT -5
Very interesting great info after reading this yesterday and today I started looking on line for 357 maximum.
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Post by squawberryman on Apr 10, 2013 7:02:41 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw is it necessarily so that any 357 Maximum is going to flame cut the top strap if loaded to it's "near" potential? I ask because I picked one up unfired with no box and I now have brass sir.
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Post by Charger Fan on Apr 10, 2013 8:18:19 GMT -5
David, Thanks for the very informative post! It's always good to have the facts available on things like this, to help dispel opinions & rumors as being fact. If you and Lee don't mind, in the spirit of having these facts available to more like-minded folks, I'm going to share this thread on the Dan Wesson Forum. HERE
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 18, 2013 12:06:36 GMT -5
squawberryman.... not sure your exact question on flame cutting. Bill Ruger, Jr., was the first to observe this phenomonon, as he paid very close attention to the guns as I shot them. Ruger, Jr., also did his share of shooting. The high pressure experimental ammo was a ticket to rapidly learning a lot about the revolvers and brass.
Bill Ruger, Jr., then noticed that top strap etching or cutting subsided after several hundred or a thousand rounds. He theorized the falloff in erosion a result of flame hardening. The same is not true for forcing cone erosion. BARREL FACE EROSION (a.k.a. forcing cone erosion) continues, and does not abate until well past proper time to reface and set back barrel.
Remeber, we practically poured very high pressure loads through the SRM prototypes. The neophyte reading this must not construe elevated pressure with slow propellant to mean he can achieve similar burn with an inappropriate powder. Or an appropriate bullet.
The .357 Maximum was developed as a high performance cartridge. Notice the gun it was housed in and the bullets and propellants with which it opened the door to further reviolver developments. David Bradshaw
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