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Post by 2 Dogs on Apr 27, 2012 14:32:39 GMT -5
I believe it does in fact cut the lands and grooves equally. Why? Well, the lapping compound has to go somewhere. Its my opinion, that the lubricant cannot be compressed, thus it forms a gasket between the barrel metal and the lead bullet. As it does this, it carries the lapping grit with it. Remember that friction is what causes leading. We dont want the barrel to be higher in the back than it is in the front. What we want is a gentle taper towards the front.
Oh, this isnt persistance. This is just madness....
Last, from what I have seen, it isnt safe to assume anything. Be sure. Measure.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2012 17:59:17 GMT -5
As long as the slug is larger than the bore diameter, the lapping will be even.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Apr 28, 2012 14:08:58 GMT -5
Not one to waste time, while I am waiting for the .4515" sizer that SteveW is sending me so I can continue to work on the 625PC, I got to thinking about this thread: singleactions.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=reloading&action=display&thread=7400I was thinking of my 66-5 Smith and remembering that the lions share of ammunition shot out of it in the past was jacketed. Some say that if you shoot enough jacketed ammo out of a sixgun that there is no need to firelap. Cleaning the barrel and pin gauging the barrel on the 66 showed the pin would easily drop through the barrel. However, while shooting lead bullets thru it the other day I did see some minor leading. I wondered if I need to do some further investigation on the 66 357 magnum. So, I pushed a lead slug through the barrel. The restriction towards the throat was obvious. Now, according to the pin gauge, this restriction will be less than .001". I wondered if I could firelap that out, and if accuracy with the loads that it shot so poorly the other day would improve. Now, this 66 has never been a bad shooter. I have cleaned many a plate rack with it and never had any trouble hitting a 8" plate with it at 75 to 80 yards consistently. But I certainly couldnt say I was satisfied with its cast bullet performance. So, to make a long story short, in the last couple of days I firelapped it 40 times with 280, followed by 10 more 320. Group testing at 25 yards showed much improved accuracy, BUT still some leading toward the rear of the barrel. Today I again firelapped it with 50 shots of 280. Now, with the load it shot the worst, it will put 4 out of 6 into 1.5" at 25 yards. The leading is very faint at this point but still visable. I will say that making firelap loads for this sixgun is childs play compared to the tight chambered 625PC. I can also roll more bullets at once. My powder charge is 3.5 grains of 231 in Nickel Magnum cases. Not once thoughout the firelapping I have done with the 625, FA97, or 66-5 have I noted the firelap loads to suddenly "stack". Still, progress while slow and however painful is being made. Jim Stroh once told me that a sixgun that is dimensioned properly will have a better chance of shooting more loads well than one that is not. As an aside, all these trips to the range have had an unexpected benefit. It seems there is a very dedicated 45 auto shooter who is not a reloader. I have picked up nearly a gallon ziplock of once fired WW 45 auto. People say, dont use your firelap cases for anything but firelapping. I am loathe to waste any reloading components. I tumble them, and use a bristle brush to clean out any built up deposit inside the cases themselves. If you are yet still wary, slosh them around with some acetone. It wont leave an grease behind.
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Post by subsonic on Apr 28, 2012 14:39:58 GMT -5
It would be a great thing to have a short list of "known" firelap powder charges compiled with something like a common powder, say 231, Trailboss, or Unique.
I think I'm going to go after the Bisely again with the 280. I don't think I was putting enough compound on the boolits.... we will see. But then again, I have 73 other projects I want to finish too. It sucks when a hobby gets to be work!
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Post by 2 Dogs on Apr 28, 2012 14:53:16 GMT -5
Sure, but I havent chronographed any of these loads. Its alot of steenkin work just doing the firelapping and my arthritus sure does get all excited without all the work of hauling and setting up the chrono too.
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 1, 2012 9:52:23 GMT -5
OK, Still locked in mortal combat with these 2 Smith and Wesson revolvers. Here is the skinny so far. I have 150 rounds of 280 grit firelap loads now thru the 66-5 and yesterday firelapped the 625PC 50 more shots with 280. This had little or no effect on the restriction which seems to be in the barrel throats only. The 4515" sizer that SteveW sent me helped the 45 acp alot. The throats on the 625 are .4525" so a am positive the lap bullets are not being impacted by passing thru tight cylinder throats, but despite that I am still seeing leading when I shoot regular ammunition AND I can feel restriction at the throat when I push a soft lead sinker thru the barrel.
The 357 is much closer to being right, but my experience with the 625 is telling me that its time to change gears and cut Taylor Throats in the barrels. So, they are both being boxed up and sent away today.
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 1, 2012 10:00:51 GMT -5
Checklist from a experienced firelapper! My response in caps:
- Is your alloy a verified 10-13 bhn at the time it's fired? YES, I HAVE A HARDNESS TESTER
- Are you using "Clover" brand, 280-320 grit lapping compound? YES
- Does it take you 1-2 minutes to embbed a boolit with compound? YES
- Are the coated boolits almost black with compound that can't be scraped off? NOT BLACK BUT DARK GREY FOR SURE.
- Do you fill the grooves with compound? YUP
- Is your velocity kept below 500 fps? HAVE NOT CHRONOGRAPHED THEM, BUT CAN SEE THE MAJORITY OF THEM IN FLIGHT SO I KNOW IM PRETTY CLOSE.
- Do you clean the gun completely after every 5-6 rounds? I DID FOR THE LAST 50 IN EACH. THE PREVIOUS WERE CLEANED EVERY 18 SHOTS.
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 1, 2012 10:02:43 GMT -5
One more note, the 357 is very close so that I can see that the lube is in fact making it to the muzzle. This tells me that just a tiny bit of restriction can cause you grief......
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Post by boxhead on May 1, 2012 11:07:42 GMT -5
Jim Stroh is also a proponent of the Taylor throat which I too have found very beneficial with a good barrel as the vast majority of earlier Smith barrels are (IME) and have Harton building a 4" 38 WCF N-Fame so equipped.
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Post by agrizz on May 1, 2012 12:01:42 GMT -5
The 357 is much closer to being right, but my experience with the 625 is telling me that its time to change gears and cut Taylor Throats in the barrels. So, they are both being boxed up and sent away today. [/quote]
Where are you sending these fine weapons?
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 1, 2012 12:28:34 GMT -5
I didn't say Nels, mostly because if after these sixguns still don't shoot to my satisfaction I don't want it to reflect on a very fine sixgun smith!
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Post by subsonic on May 1, 2012 15:12:36 GMT -5
I am surprised you gave up, but that's basically where I am with the mine.
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 1, 2012 15:25:51 GMT -5
Man, that's a lot of 280 down the bore. I'm not a Taylor throat fan but banging my head on the concrete makes people look at me funny. Besides, I may not be all done fire lapping yet! Have to see what I get back. I'm gonna make these 2 sixguns shoot even I have to kiss Mary Turnbuckle to do it.
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Post by boxhead on May 2, 2012 12:18:44 GMT -5
Man, that's a lot of 280 down the bore. I'm not a Taylor throat fan but banging my head on the concrete makes people look at me funny. Besides, I may not be all done fire lapping yet! Have to see what I get back. I'm gonna make these 2 sixguns shoot even I have to kiss Mary Turnbuckle to do it. Tell me your thoughts on Taylor throating. I have two so done, a 5 shot 45 Colt Bisley and the Stroh 45 Colt M29 conversion and both shoot crazy accurate. The next toy our friend in Houston has in line will also be so throated.
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 2, 2012 21:54:09 GMT -5
I honestly dont know Ed. I think it was originally developed to help out sixguns that displayed less than optimum alignment. That applying a Taylor Throat to fix a barrel restriction will also help a sixgun shoot well is purely incidental I think. Pull your FA apart. You will note that it has very little throat. Alan Harton built me two sixguns with very shallow throats. They shot extremely well, BUT, both had excellent alignment to start with. Now, I know Seyfried shot 1" 100 yard groups with his, and many others have had very good results. BUT, and I am speculating here, I would think that one needs to select a bullet that is long enough to at some point NOT going to float in mid air! I really dont know because I have never had a Taylor Throated sixgun. I have had Reeders Maxi Throats, and they all shot very well, so I know the idea will work. But again, I wouldnt consider it optimum. I will know more here pretty soon.... Hell, I may become a HUGE fan!
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