gnappi
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,609
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Post by gnappi on Jul 17, 2024 11:44:28 GMT -5
I still give Thell Reed's daughter the benefit of the doubt and think she got railroaded. With Brandon Lee there was a previous squib involved. >>SNIP<< CHECK YOUR DAM GUNS ARMORERERS. And dont let them out of your sight. Absolutely! Pre-trial videos of the set showed the armorer's cart left alone and not once, she lost custody of the guns and ammo several times. Add to that the pics of the cartridges showed that they were head stamped Starline .45 Colt NOT Starline .45 LC BLANK! The ammo loader used .45 Colt brass? That's OK? Not in my book! |
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pete
.30 Stingray
Posts: 293
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Post by pete on Jul 17, 2024 16:27:55 GMT -5
I don't like the man or his politics either, but personal bias aside, HE was the last one to handle the gun before he killed her. There's something wrong with not holding him accountable. If he had run her over with a car would they have found his mechanic guilty?
These hollywood jack wagons need formal firearms training as a condition of employment. Something they have to attend and get some sort of trackable proof, like a CPL card, that has to be renewed every year before they can work on a set with firearms. I have training I take for my job EVERY YEAR, and none of the things I handle quite have the potential for instant death of another from a distance. I don't see why this is any different.
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Post by drycreek on Jul 17, 2024 20:13:24 GMT -5
I don't like the man or his politics either, but personal bias aside, HE was the last one to handle the gun before he killed her. There's something wrong with not holding him accountable. If he had run her over with a car would they have found his mechanic guilty? These hollywood jack wagons need formal firearms training as a condition of employment. Something they have to attend and get some sort of trackable proof, like a CPL card, that has to be renewed every year before they can work on a set with firearms. I have training I take for my job EVERY YEAR, and none of the things I handle quite have the potential for instant death of another from a distance. I don't see why this is any different. You know Pete, you bring up a good point. I had a construction company, and we worked for a brick plant some. That put us in a mine of sorts, and under the auspices of MSHA. We had to undergo MSHA training each year and be certified, carry a card and all. On top of that, I held a safety meeting on the first Monday of each month for all of my hands. My Momma used to say, “What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander”. The (liberal) powers that be have no problem suggesting that concealed carriers should have to go through some formal training, and most of the Hollywood crowd abhors the Second Amendment, so to invoke another old saying, “charity begins at home”. |
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Post by eisenhower on Jul 17, 2024 21:02:34 GMT -5
I don't like the man or his politics either, but personal bias aside, HE was the last one to handle the gun before he killed her. There's something wrong with not holding him accountable. If he had run her over with a car would they have found his mechanic guilty? These hollywood jack wagons need formal firearms training as a condition of employment. Something they have to attend and get some sort of trackable proof, like a CPL card, that has to be renewed every year before they can work on a set with firearms. I have training I take for my job EVERY YEAR, and none of the things I handle quite have the potential for instant death of another from a distance. I don't see why this is any different. Please see my prior analogy to a person being asked to participate in a magic trick and unintentionally killing the assistant. I think it's a lot closer to what happened than your comparison of him hitting someone with a car and then blaming the mechanic. If you want to make it policy that every time an prop-master/armorer hands a firearm to an actor, the actor must unload and examine any cartridges to ensure they are blanks before proceeding, that's one thing - but that is not, nor has it ever been, policy on any movie sets that I'm aware of. The actor trusts the person in charge of the firearm to give him a prop that is not capable of killing someone. Additionally, Baldwin has said that Mrs. Hutchins asked him to point the pistol at roughly her armpit as they were setting up a camera angle. It's not like Baldwin was running around playing pop-gun with people between scenes - this was a tragic set of events in which a gun that was not supposed to be loaded with real bullets was loaded with real bullets and the person in charge of the gun failed to control it. I see a lot of attacks on Baldwin on the net and about 98% of the time, the people saying he should be in jail have a clear bias against him based on his personality, politics, etc. that they put right up front. That's not how the justice system is intended to work. Lady Justice wears a blindfold for that very reason. |
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Post by bushog on Jul 17, 2024 22:22:33 GMT -5
If he got off on the technicality of mis-handling evidence, so should the armorer. I don’t care for her one bit but she’s in a prison cell and didn’t pull the trigger
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Post by CraigC on Jul 18, 2024 1:49:55 GMT -5
I still give Thell Reed's daughter the benefit of the doubt and think she got railroaded. With Brandon Lee there was a previous squib involved. She did get Railroaded. Thats just how chicken S.... These hollywood elites are. Its someone elses fault. Its my understanding that Baldwin and the rest of the boneheads didnt listen to her and went over her head. BECAUSE THEY ARE JUST SOOOOO SPECIAL. That's also what I heard. That she was basically overridden, because Baldwin, the producer, is boss man on the set. |
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pete
.30 Stingray
Posts: 293
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Post by pete on Jul 18, 2024 15:14:51 GMT -5
Eisenhower,
My point was that they passed the buck down the ladder, but it was Baldwin's hand on the gun when she died. In any other world he's responsible. These people should know how to open an action, clear it, and make sure the gun is loaded with easily identifiable blanks. If they aren't going to be doing all that I would think they would want to watch the firearm being loaded. If I hand someone here one of my firearms, I expect them to check. Maybe some think I'm being overly cautious or critical, so be it. I care not what anyone else on the planet thinks.
And I'm not saying all this because I dislike Baldwin, I dislike someone who's too special or important to own their actions so someone below them has to take the responsibility. I have zero time for class or caste mentality.
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Post by bigbore5 on Jul 18, 2024 19:05:17 GMT -5
A-hole or not, there's simply no excuse for anyone not to know the tools of the trade. Do you believe it would have been the same results if that gun would have been handed to Eastwood or Keanu Reeves? No. Those gentlemen know the tools that made them rich. It's their habit to check and clear their "props" on set. I'm sure there's probably more than a few that do it. Probably not a single person on this site doesn't do it just from habit.
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Post by eisenhower on Jul 18, 2024 20:07:46 GMT -5
Eisenhower, My point was that they passed the buck down the ladder, but it was Baldwin's hand on the gun when she died. In any other world he's responsible. These people should know how to open an action, clear it, and make sure the gun is loaded with easily identifiable blanks. If they aren't going to be doing all that I would think they would want to watch the firearm being loaded. If I hand someone here one of my firearms, I expect them to check. Maybe some think I'm being overly cautious or critical, so be it. I care not what anyone else on the planet thinks. And I'm not saying all this because I dislike Baldwin, I dislike someone who's too special or important to own their actions so someone below them has to take the responsibility. I have zero time for class or caste mentality. We can agree to disagree. There's a lot of ascribing hubris, arrogance, etc. to Baldwin, but the fact I would hope all of us can agree on is that he had no intent to hurt anyone. With that as a premise, I simply do not expect actors on a movie set to treat a firearm the same way you or I do in the real world. That's not to say that in the wake of this accident they shouldn't start. But I simply do not share in most of you guys' belief that he has the same level of legal responsibility as the armorer on the set for reasons I've laid out above. What Eastwood might do because he's gun-savvy is not a standard I would apply to every actor put in a position of handling a firearm. We expect the armorer to control his weapons in the real world. We expect the actors to play pretend with them in the fantasy world. To my way of thinking, one person on that set bore the primary responsibility for ensuring live ammunition was not in that gun and it wasn't the actor it was handed to. As I say, moving foreword, ammunition verification checks at every level make good sense. |
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Post by squawberryman on Jul 19, 2024 5:41:16 GMT -5
I can't WAIT for the movie to come out! Anyone wanna come over?
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Post by bigmuddy on Jul 19, 2024 9:02:58 GMT -5
I have read through all of the comments on this thread and have to say I agree with Eisenhower. We may be thinking because this particular incident involved a SA revolver it would’ve been easy for the actor to check the weapon. Do we really think that in a movie, say like Saving Private Ryan, that each of the actors should un-load and re-load each fully automatic weapon they used before every take of every scene? Highly unlikely! And as to “easily recognizable blanks”, in my book on guns and gear used in the making of Tombstone there is a picture of some of the 5 in 1 blanks that were altered to look like real bullets.
Dan
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pete
.30 Stingray
Posts: 293
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Post by pete on Jul 19, 2024 14:32:38 GMT -5
I don't like the man or his politics either, but personal bias aside, HE was the last one to handle the gun before he killed her. There's something wrong with not holding him accountable. If he had run her over with a car would they have found his mechanic guilty? These hollywood jack wagons need formal firearms training as a condition of employment. Something they have to attend and get some sort of trackable proof, like a CPL card, that has to be renewed every year before they can work on a set with firearms. I have training I take for my job EVERY YEAR, and none of the things I handle quite have the potential for instant death of another from a distance. I don't see why this is any different. You know Pete, you bring up a good point. I had a construction company, and we worked for a brick plant some. That put us in a mine of sorts, and under the auspices of MSHA. We had to undergo MSHA training each year and be certified, carry a card and all. On top of that, I held a safety meeting on the first Monday of each month for all of my hands. My Momma used to say, “What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander”. The (liberal) powers that be have no problem suggesting that concealed carriers should have to go through some formal training, and most of the Hollywood crowd abhors the Second Amendment, so to invoke another old saying, “charity begins at home”. Because of their politics they would probably balk at the idea of firearms training. I bet some of them would change their minds about firearms, though! Bigmuddy, I don't have your book but I've seen blanks in the past that are crimped at the mouth of the case, like 22 birdshot, or nail setting cartridges. So it's not inconceivable that they can be used. While I agree with some of Eisenhower's posts, I don't feel Baldwin should be held responsible because I don't like him. In the past, I've stood up for people I don't like who were being treated unfairly, it's simply a matter of right vs. wrong with me. That's all. |
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caryc
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,055
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Post by caryc on Jul 19, 2024 18:00:27 GMT -5
Imagine this scenario. You're at a magic show of a big time famous magician, let's say Doug Henning or David Copperfield. He says he's now going to cut his assistant in half and calls upon someone from the audience to assist. You raise your hand and he calls you up. The assistant climbs in to the box, and the magician (a trained professional) hands you a sword which you are supposed to insert into the box. You do so as the crowd gasps when suddenly you hear the assistant scream and you withdraw the sword to find it covered in blood. Somehow, someone substituted a real, sharpened sword and the mechanism inside the box that is supposed to avert it from contact with the assistant failed. She's now bled to death. Did you check the sword for sharpness before you inserted it into the box? Should you have? Did you ask to inspect the box to see how the trick works before you inserted the sword? Should you have? Did you do your due diligence or were you participating in a performance and expecting the "magic" was supposed to work? There's a big difference between the real world and the artifice of performance. That's why I say, this case is tragic, and while all of us might closely inspect a handgun before pointing it at someone, an actor with no real training in firearms might very well take the "prop" he's handed by a prop master and use it exactly as he/she is instructed. In this case, tragedy ensued. DeWayne I understand completely what you are saying. I think what has a lot of people upset about this situation was the fact that Baldwin swears that he never pulled the trigger. "The gun just went off" That's why they have armorers on movie sets. Their job is to load that gun with the proper ammo (in this case blanks) and get that gun to the actor on the set. The actors job is to follow the script, not to see that the armorer has done their job. If that was the case why even have an armorer? You and I have to double check the loads in our guns because we don't have armorers to do it for us. We know our guns have real ammo in them. There should not be any live ammo on a movie set. If that was done there wouldn't have been a death on that set. |
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Post by bigmuddy on Jul 20, 2024 0:04:40 GMT -5
I’m a member of an old west re-enactment group and we shoot 100’s of blanks each year. I am the safety officer for our group. I am certain that had they followed our safety protocols this tragedy would never had happened.
With that said…. There was mention of the star crimped blanks. We used to use them but were told there is a possibility of a piece of the “star” becoming a projectile so we quit using them. We now load all of our own blanks.
The blanks in the book I mentioned were to add realism to the look when the camera was facing the actor. Bullets looked real in the cylinder. I would never allow something like that in our performances.
In our group we assign an armorer and each weapon is checked at least 3 times before a performance. I could go on and on about this, but still can’t see how a movie actor is responsible for the weapon handed to them. I can add, that our liability insurance company would not renew our policy as a direct result of the Rust incident. We found another carrier but pay twice as much now.
Dan
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caryc
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,055
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Post by caryc on Jul 20, 2024 0:24:26 GMT -5
I’m a member of an old west re-enactment group and we shoot 100’s of blanks each year. I am the safety officer for our group. I am certain that had they followed our safety protocols this tragedy would never had happened. With that said…. There was mention of the star crimped blanks. We used to use them but were told there is a possibility of a piece of the “star” becoming a projectile so we quit using them. We now load all of our own blanks. The blanks in the book I mentioned were to add realism to the look when the camera was facing the actor. Bullets looked real in the cylinder. I would never allow something like that in our performances. In our group we assign an armorer and each weapon is checked at least 3 times before a performance. I could go on and on about this, but still can’t see how a movie actor is responsible for the weapon handed to them. I can add, that our liability insurance company would not renew our policy as a direct result of the Rust incident. We found another carrier but pay twice as much now. Dan I am a fast draw shooter and shoot plenty of blanks. I load my own blanks as you can see in the case on the right. They are loaded with single F black powder and a cup shaped piece of heavy cardboard is pressed in on top of them. Those I buy from Bob Mernickle, the holster maker. He is also a former fast draw champion. If the blanks are going to be stored for a while before shooting I seal those cardboard cups with red nail polish. If you're wondering why single F powder, it's used because the burning and unburned crystals of powder are what breaks the balloon targets used in fast draw.  |
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