Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,670
|
Post by Fowler on Jan 17, 2024 14:19:22 GMT -5
I don't know about you gentlemen, but I see a huge influence from the Colt New Frontier in the Ruger Blackhawk. With a few tweats, such as better steen, different front sight, aluminum grip frame and ejector housing (not all of them) and music wire coil springs Bill Ruger basically copied the Colt and made it better. Don't read my wrong I dearly love my Blackhawks. Ruger also sold them cheaper. Except the Blackhawk predates the New Frontier by nearly 10 years. Yes the Single Action Army certainly influenced the Blackhawk but the New Frontier seems to have been the response to the Blackhawk taking their market... |
|
|
|
Post by revolvercranker on Jan 17, 2024 14:35:19 GMT -5
THE COLT NF(1962) CAME AFTER THE ORIGINAL BLACKHAWK (1955)AND COPIED IT SOME WHAT. My mistake and I stand correct and appreciate that. I know you know your stuff too, thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by RDW on Jan 17, 2024 15:03:27 GMT -5
I don't know about you gentlemen, but I see a huge influence from the Colt New Frontier in the Ruger Blackhawk. With a few tweats, such as better steen, different front sight, aluminum grip frame and ejector housing (not all of them) and music wire coil springs Bill Ruger basically copied the Colt and made it better. Don't read my wrong I dearly love my Blackhawks. Ruger also sold them cheaper. Except the Blackhawk predates the New Frontier by nearly 10 years. Yes the Single Action Army certainly influenced the Blackhawk but the New Frontier seems to have been the response to the Blackhawk taking their market... Good points Revolvercranker! Big Influence but i beleive for obvious reasons. I myself look at it from the manufacturing angle. I have been in the old Colt Plant, the old Smith and Wesson plant. Bridgeport Machinery and i have seen how they machined these parts and peices for years during the 1800s on up to now. Connecticut river powered shafts and leather belts. 11 RPM on the main shaft in the summer, 7 in the winter with a spike to 12 in the early spring when everything starts melting. Colt was one of the very first and designed a stable platform. And we have used it for years. SW had some cutting edge revolvers,Remington, etc,etc, but they were all based on a principle and for the shape of the human hand. Its kindof like making a wheel. If its gonna work and roll, well its gonna have to be round. In other words they are going to have to be similar. I think Bill Ruger went with what worked as far as shape and function, however he was a very talented engineer and an out of the box thinker. If we are going to make something similar to what we already have and is no longer available, LETS MAKE IT BETTER. And he did. This was post world war 2 and our technology had quadrupled over the course of Bills Youth. Better Materials, machining, electricity on tap, carbide cutters. Cam operated machinery for production and the whispers of computer control devices being designed in the near future. The 357 could not be implemented with out a bigger, stronger revolver with enough meat to contain the higher pressure which Bill had witnessed during his adult concept and development Years . Colt had not seen that in the 1800s and not obviously been thinking might be a potential avenue for power expantion. As the 44 mag came out Bill was johnny on the spot in manipulating what he already had. A great and proven design but with better newer materials and much better machinery and technique. So Bill Had some advantages and Colt came to play. I think they just watched the Market and decided it was time to step up there own game and get in on the action their grandfathers had started. The adition to the industry of investment casting was the Holy Grail move i beleive. The grip Frame in Aluminum. The Main Frame in 4140 all cast components made at a major reduced cost made it a shoe in. I dont think Bill Ruger copied the Colt Peacemaker. I think he just mimicked the shape because as i stated before a wheel has to be round. The springs, were a major step into the 20 century. However you dont realise the Genius until you look at the New Model. So many things happening at the same time. The cross polination of all the flowers involved per to say. A loading gate that utilises a Uniquly shaped spring that also pulls down the bolt releasing the cylinder for roll without ever having to touch the hammer when you open it. And stops the action from working for safety. Holy Cow Man. Pure genius. Lets dont even talk about the trasnsfer bar that allows you to cock the gun and throw it up against the wall and never worry about the firing pin striking a primer. It is still to this day and engineers delight. The old gen1 colt is just pure love man. Just because of what it is and what it has acheived. The new frontier is just as cool and will always hold a high mark on the Kewlness scale to me. I love em all and will never expect either to be anything but what they are. A peice of Modern American History. I wish CZ would come out and play. And i Wish Me and Brady F could get USFA. We would really start some debachery!!!!!!!!! |
|
|
|
Post by RDW on Jan 17, 2024 15:13:22 GMT -5
I've always loved the New Frontier Revolvers. This includes both rimfire and centerfire models. Also agree that books could be written on what Colt could and should have done. I've got two. A 44 Special/44-40 Convertible. Ditto on a 22 LR/22 Magnum. I wish more were available. 32-20/327 Fed, 38-40/10mm, 41 Magnum and many more thoughts cross my mind. Maybe Ronnie will chime in and tell us what could be done if built from 4150, etc... Absolutely Huey. You Know. My goodness 4140,4150, 4340, Light years and ruger only loads better. But Carpenters 17-4 or 465. YEAHH BABY! I just tweaked a bath recently per a chemical engineer buddys advise and found that the Brownells old formula # 84 will blue the crap out of 465. Ive done the 17-4 for years now. Minimal shading difference from Ruger blue, not purple and absolutely not noticable against a case colored frame. |
|
|
|
Post by revolvercranker on Jan 17, 2024 15:53:19 GMT -5
Except the Blackhawk predates the New Frontier by nearly 10 years. Yes the Single Action Army certainly influenced the Blackhawk but the New Frontier seems to have been the response to the Blackhawk taking their market... Good points Revolvercranker! Big Influence but i beleive for obvious reasons. I myself look at it from the manufacturing angle. I have been in the old Colt Plant, the old Smith and Wesson plant. Bridgeport Machinery and i have seen how they machined these parts and peices for years during the 1800s on up to now. Connecticut river powered shafts and leather belts. 11 RPM on the main shaft in the summer, 7 in the winter with a spike to 12 in the early spring when everything starts melting. Colt was one of the very first and designed a stable platform. And we have used it for years. SW had some cutting edge revolvers,Remington, etc,etc, but they were all based on a principle and for the shape of the human hand. Its kindof like making a wheel. If its gonna work and roll, well its gonna have to be round. In other words they are going to have to be similar. I think Bill Ruger went with what worked as far as shape and function, however he was a very talented engineer and an out of the box thinker. If we are going to make something similar to what we already have and is no longer available, LETS MAKE IT BETTER. And he did. This was post world war 2 and our technology had quadrupled over the course of Bills Youth. Better Materials, machining, electricity on tap, carbide cutters. Cam operated machinery for production and the whispers of computer control devices being designed in the near future. The 357 could not be implemented with out a bigger, stronger revolver with enough meat to contain the higher pressure which Bill had witnessed during his adult concept and development Years . Colt had not seen that in the 1800s and not obviously been thinking might be a potential avenue for power expantion. As the 44 mag came out Bill was johnny on the spot in manipulating what he already had. A great and proven design but with better newer materials and much better machinery and technique. So Bill Had some advantages and Colt came to play. I think they just watched the Market and decided it was time to step up there own game and get in on the action their grandfathers had started. The adition to the industry of investment casting was the Holy Grail move i beleive. The grip Frame in Aluminum. The Main Frame in 4140 all cast components made at a major reduced cost made it a shoe in. I dont think Bill Ruger copied the Colt Peacemaker. I think he just mimicked the shape because as i stated before a wheel has to be round. The springs, were a major step into the 20 century. However you dont realise the Genius until you look at the New Model. So many things happening at the same time. The cross polination of all the flowers involved per to say. A loading gate that utilises a Uniquly shaped spring that also pulls down the bolt releasing the cylinder for roll without ever having to touch the hammer when you open it. And stops the action from working for safety. Holy Cow Man. Pure genius. Lets dont even talk about the trasnsfer bar that allows you to cock the gun and throw it up against the wall and never worry about the firing pin striking a primer. It is still to this day and engineers delight. The old gen1 colt is just pure love man. Just because of what it is and what it has acheived. The new frontier is just as cool and will always hold a high mark on the Kewlness scale to me. I love em all and will never expect either to be anything but what they are. A peice of Modern American History. I wish CZ would come out and play. And i Wish Me and Brady F could get USFA. We would really start some debachery!!!!!!!!! You're right about what you say. Like Clint Eastwood's movie Outlaw Josey Wales, your words have iron in them. Bill was alway overly concerned about safety. The guns he makes are brute strong for sure, but I despise the tranfer bar and the the opening of the loading gate. Ever notice that since he did that gate thing that all the cylinder get a score mark from the bolt? Also notice that unlike the old model one click on the cylinder brought the chamber inline with the gate? I don't like the aluminum on the gun especially on the ejector housing. First thing I did to my 45 Colt Blackhawk was put a Colt ejector rod housing on it. I mentioned numerous times on here few years ago I got a mint Blackhawk in 41 mag. It was a three screw that was converted. Through the wonderful member on this forum I was able to get the correct parts to change it back to a three screw and am happy with it. I wish Ruger would have made a real casehardened frame like the Colts. I know a guy that was in Bill's group in management. Spoke with him. He said he was a real egotistical bastard. Didn't make him any less an engineer. BTW I also don't believe the 1911 should have a grip safety. iscal |
|
|
|
Post by bobwright on Jan 17, 2024 17:10:58 GMT -5
as to the introduction of the Blackhawk, when I saw the first advertising photos they were of a 4 5/8" Flat Top Blackhawk and I thought that was the handsomest revolver profile I'd ever seen. But funds were short at the time and an $89.95 price tag was 'way out of reach. In May of 1958 I was better off financially, and a young soldier at Camp Roberts, California. So took a pass and went into Paso Robles and saw one there so bought it on the spot. Had to get it registered with the Provost Marshal and my company commander's permission to keep it in the company arms room. The latter was of no consequence to me, I was in charge of the arms foom! That in 1958. The same Ruger today:  The grips are mesquite from Cary Chapman, all aluminum parts replaced width steel. I think it has over 15,000 rounds fired through it. Bob Wright |
|
|
|
Post by bobwright on Jan 17, 2024 17:16:27 GMT -5
As...............as to Colt and Ruger, may I present this just for bunkum:  Bob Wright P.S. I KNOW the correct spelling is Buncombe. |
|
|
|
Post by revolvercranker on Jan 17, 2024 17:38:32 GMT -5
as to the introduction of the Blackhawk, when I saw the first advertising photos they were of a 4 5/8" Flat Top Blackhawk and I thought that was the handsomest revolver profile I'd ever seen. But funds were short at the time and an $89.95 price tag was 'way out of reach. In May of 1958 I was better off financially, and a young soldier at Camp Roberts, California. So took a pass and went into Paso Robles and saw one there so bought it on the spot. Had to get it registered with the Provost Marshal and my company commander's permission to keep it in the company arms room. The latter was of no consequence to me, I was in charge of the arms foom! That in 1958. The same Ruger today: The grips are mesquite from Cary Chapman, all aluminum parts replaced width steel. I think it has over 15,000 rounds fired through it. Bob Wright Damn, that's a downright beautiful Ruger!! |
|
|
|
Post by RDW on Jan 17, 2024 17:47:50 GMT -5
Good points Revolvercranker! Big Influence but i beleive for obvious reasons. I myself look at it from the manufacturing angle. I have been in the old Colt Plant, the old Smith and Wesson plant. Bridgeport Machinery and i have seen how they machined these parts and peices for years during the 1800s on up to now. Connecticut river powered shafts and leather belts. 11 RPM on the main shaft in the summer, 7 in the winter with a spike to 12 in the early spring when everything starts melting. Colt was one of the very first and designed a stable platform. And we have used it for years. SW had some cutting edge revolvers,Remington, etc,etc, but they were all based on a principle and for the shape of the human hand. Its kindof like making a wheel. If its gonna work and roll, well its gonna have to be round. In other words they are going to have to be similar. I think Bill Ruger went with what worked as far as shape and function, however he was a very talented engineer and an out of the box thinker. If we are going to make something similar to what we already have and is no longer available, LETS MAKE IT BETTER. And he did. This was post world war 2 and our technology had quadrupled over the course of Bills Youth. Better Materials, machining, electricity on tap, carbide cutters. Cam operated machinery for production and the whispers of computer control devices being designed in the near future. The 357 could not be implemented with out a bigger, stronger revolver with enough meat to contain the higher pressure which Bill had witnessed during his adult concept and development Years . Colt had not seen that in the 1800s and not obviously been thinking might be a potential avenue for power expantion. As the 44 mag came out Bill was johnny on the spot in manipulating what he already had. A great and proven design but with better newer materials and much better machinery and technique. So Bill Had some advantages and Colt came to play. I think they just watched the Market and decided it was time to step up there own game and get in on the action their grandfathers had started. The adition to the industry of investment casting was the Holy Grail move i beleive. The grip Frame in Aluminum. The Main Frame in 4140 all cast components made at a major reduced cost made it a shoe in. I dont think Bill Ruger copied the Colt Peacemaker. I think he just mimicked the shape because as i stated before a wheel has to be round. The springs, were a major step into the 20 century. However you dont realise the Genius until you look at the New Model. So many things happening at the same time. The cross polination of all the flowers involved per to say. A loading gate that utilises a Uniquly shaped spring that also pulls down the bolt releasing the cylinder for roll without ever having to touch the hammer when you open it. And stops the action from working for safety. Holy Cow Man. Pure genius. Lets dont even talk about the trasnsfer bar that allows you to cock the gun and throw it up against the wall and never worry about the firing pin striking a primer. It is still to this day and engineers delight. The old gen1 colt is just pure love man. Just because of what it is and what it has acheived. The new frontier is just as cool and will always hold a high mark on the Kewlness scale to me. I love em all and will never expect either to be anything but what they are. A peice of Modern American History. I wish CZ would come out and play. And i Wish Me and Brady F could get USFA. We would really start some debachery!!!!!!!!! You're right about what you say. Like Clint Eastwood's movie Outlaw Josey Wales, your words have iron in them. Bill was alway overly concerned about safety. The guns he makes are brute strong for sure, but I despise the tranfer bar and the the opening of the loading gate. Ever notice that since he did that gate thing that all the cylinder get a score mark from the bolt? Also notice that unlike the old model one click on the cylinder brought the chamber inline with the gate? I don't like the aluminum on the gun especially on the ejector housing. First thing I did to my 45 Colt Blackhawk was put a Colt ejector rod housing on it. I mentioned numerous times on here few years ago I got a mint Blackhawk in 41 mag. It was a three screw that was converted. Through the wonderful member on this forum I was able to get the correct parts to change it back to a three screw and am happy with it. I wish Ruger would have made a real casehardened frame like the Colts. I know a guy that was in Bill's group in management. Spoke with him. He said he was a real egotistical bastard. Didn't make him any less an engineer. BTW I also don't believe the 1911 should have a grip safety. iscal Ya Man. There is nothing that feels as good as an old 3 screw to me either. And yes the transfer bar system doesnt feel as good, But it was pure genius to me in the era of ambulance chasers and the current system of ITS SOMEBODY ELSES FAULT IM A DUMBA.. AND SHOT MYSELF IN THE LEG!! hahaha ya wouldnt a real case colored frame have been cool on a flat top type target. Ahhh dreams dreams dreams huh? I love it. Shoot lets make a couple. |
|
|
|
Post by RDW on Jan 17, 2024 17:48:42 GMT -5
as to the introduction of the Blackhawk, when I saw the first advertising photos they were of a 4 5/8" Flat Top Blackhawk and I thought that was the handsomest revolver profile I'd ever seen. But funds were short at the time and an $89.95 price tag was 'way out of reach. In May of 1958 I was better off financially, and a young soldier at Camp Roberts, California. So took a pass and went into Paso Robles and saw one there so bought it on the spot. Had to get it registered with the Provost Marshal and my company commander's permission to keep it in the company arms room. The latter was of no consequence to me, I was in charge of the arms foom! That in 1958. The same Ruger today: The grips are mesquite from Cary Chapman, all aluminum parts replaced width steel. I think it has over 15,000 rounds fired through it. Bob Wright That is how a sixgun should look BOB. Hands down. |
|
|
|
Post by Encore64 on Jan 17, 2024 19:01:15 GMT -5
One needs only look at the FA97 to see what the proper design, materials and craftsmanship can accomplish.
Clearly a different vision of a revolver, but a prime example...
|
|
|
|
Post by marcruger on Jan 18, 2024 6:37:03 GMT -5
New Frontiers are beautiful guns. Just beware of the 3rd Gen guns, and only buy one after you examine it in person.
I once bought an '81 NIB SAA from a reputable dealer online. Nickel, 44 Special, 4-3/4" unturned in box. Clearly an "investment safe queen". The gun was one of the worst guns from any manufacturer that I have ever had the misfortune to hold. It looked beautiful, but on picking it up, you could feel and hear the cylinder flopping around on the base pin. Clunk clunk clunk. I cocked the hammer, and the internals felt like it had washers made of 36 grit sandpaper. The gun would not hold full cock on one chamber. And the front edge of the trigger opening in the guard was so sharp it sliced my finger open. Thankfully the dealer was reputable and I returned it for a refund. Clearly with those issues I never shot it.
If the SAA above had been a 22 Heritage I would have expected better on all counts above and sent it back for warranty work. That Colt SAA was an expensive revolver, with no build or quality control.
21st Century 3rd Gen Colt SAs are fine guns, as are 1st and 2nd Gens. It has been reported that some SAAs from the rest of the earlier 3rd Gens are fine guns. I would not buy one without inspection first.
This wonderful forum is populated by folks who love to shoot fine revolvers. In the Colt world, there are some who don't shoot them and view them as investments. To the latter the fact that a gun is abysmal as a shooter means little as long as it looks good. Just keep your eyes open and inspect carefully before buying if you intend to shoot a 3rd Gen. The good ones are wonderful.
Oh yes, I personally love that New Frontier front sight!
God Bless, Marc
|
|
|
|
Post by revolvercranker on Jan 18, 2024 9:10:25 GMT -5
New Frontiers are beautiful guns. Just beware of the 3rd Gen guns, and only buy one after you examine it in person. I once bought an '81 NIB SAA from a reputable dealer online. Nickel, 44 Special, 4-3/4" unturned in box. Clearly an "investment safe queen". The gun was one of the worst guns from any manufacturer that I have ever had the misfortune to hold. It looked beautiful, but on picking it up, you could feel and hear the cylinder flopping around on the base pin. Clunk clunk clunk. I cocked the hammer, and the internals felt like it had washers made of 36 grit sandpaper. The gun would not hold full cock on one chamber. And the front edge of the trigger opening in the guard was so sharp it sliced my finger open. Thankfully the dealer was reputable and I returned it for a refund. Clearly with those issues I never shot it. If the SAA above had been a 22 Heritage I would have expected better on all counts above and sent it back for warranty work. That Colt SAA was an expensive revolver, with no build or quality control. 21st Century 3rd Gen Colt SAs are fine guns, as are 1st and 2nd Gens. It has been reported that some SAAs from the rest of the earlier 3rd Gens are fine guns. I would not buy one without inspection first. This wonderful forum is populated by folks who love to shoot fine revolvers. In the Colt world, there are some who don't shoot them and view them as investments. To the latter the fact that a gun is abysmal as a shooter means little as long as it looks good. Just keep your eyes open and inspect carefully before buying if you intend to shoot a 3rd Gen. The good ones are wonderful. Oh yes, I personally love that New Frontier front sight! God Bless, Marc When I was dealer I bought a regular fixed sight Colt 4 3/4 barrel in 357 Magnum. The back end of the barrel that mates up with the face of the cylinder had 4 steps on it as though it chatters on the lathe tool to face it off. Send it back to Colt and instead of fixing just that, they sent a whole new revolver. Well on the second one if you looked at it from either side view the top strap was bowed down towards the cylinder and the cylinder gap wasn't even, it was wedge shape because of the top strap being bowed. I wasn't going to sent it back so fixed it myself. I took a 3/8 inch nut and bolt of the correct length for what I wanted to do, and that was to use those two things for a jack pillar. Put it in the center of the window opening after removing the cylinder and with two wrenches jacked the top strap up level. The cylinder gap looked perfect. The revolver worked and shot just fine. But guns were 3rd generation. I didn't have a good view of Colt at that time. Later on I got a new 45 Colt barrel and cylinder from a dealer at the Tulsa gunshow and turned the 357 into a 45 Colt. At that time, early 80's no 45 caliber Colts were to be found. My trouble didn't end there. After having it for a while and shooting it the cylinder split at the chamber wall to the cylinder pin. Bought another new cylinder and was back on the road again. I was shooting stardard 45 Colt loads, I knew not to hot rod the Colt Peacemaker. Later I sold the gun. |
|
|
|
Post by bobwright on Jan 18, 2024 10:38:05 GMT -5
As to the front sight and ramp of the New Frontier I've sort of made do with it. But when I customized my SAA I chose the Ruger Balmkehawk ramp and sikght:  This old Colt, by the way, is a .357 Magnum, with S&W rear sight, Ruger front sight, 1851 Navy backstrap and home made walnut grips. Its a .38 Special as far as I'm concerned. Bob Wright |
|
|
|
Post by marcruger on Jan 18, 2024 10:50:09 GMT -5
BobWright, that revolver with the mesquite grips is gorgeous, and sounds like a long-time companion. God Bless, Marc
|
|
