S&W 4513T Problem

[x101airborne]

Years ago I traded another officer out of a 4513 Tactical Smith and Wesson. Just recently started trying to use it some and have encountered a problem. This weapon has a decocker and I carry it chambered with the hammer down and the safety off. When trying to fire the first round double action it will rarely fire. Single action is a very short reset and a light pull. Even for a light compact auto hits are easy at  30 yards on Coke cans. 

Best I can tell, double action firing does not bring the hammer back far enough to gain momentum to set off primers. There is a small mark on primers not set off from the firing pin hitting; not near enough of a mark to even say it tried to fire. Anyone else ever heard of this? Is this a "mothership" fix only? Thoughts and opinions wanted please. 

[bigbrowndog]

Trey, does it actually have a de cocker and no safety or are you using the safety as a decocker. I ask because I’ve never seen a 4513 or 4516 with an actual decocker, just the safety that drops the hammer. All the S&W decocker autos I’ve seen have no manual safety.
Second, I know magazines were an issue with certain models, to the point that S&W placed warnings on them about which models and dash versions would work with what, also that some need a certain type follower ONLY. Make sure you’ve got everything correct and then maybe take it apart and check for friction marks or broken parts possibly even misaligned parts.
I’ve got a 4516 that is my carry gun and though the trigger is rough and tough it is quite accurate, I had looked for a 4513 first but found this 4516 for a great price.

Trapr

[x101airborne]

Inserting a magazine and releasing the slide leaves the hammer back for firing. Rotating the lever down releases the hammer and completely disconnects the trigger. Rotating the lever back up allows the trigger to engage and requires a double action pull to rotate the hammer back and in theory fire the first round. The safety lever will stay in the down or up position as you leave it. It does not return on it's own like the newer generation Beretta M9A3's and M9A4's.

[bigbrowndog]

Ok the safety lever is just that a safety lever, when the gun is on safe the hammer will drop when the slide is dropped. If the safety is in the fire position then the hammer remains cocked and ready to fire when the slide is dropped. Yes the trigger is completely disengaged when safety is ON. It’s just the way SW autos of that timeframe work. They are not Berettas or SIGs or anything else they are simply S&Ws, and that’s how they work. The decocker S&Ws had no safety and the decocker was a lever located about where the mag release would be located, not on the slide.
If your 4513 fails to fire on the first DA trigger pull, then I’d say it’s either trigger related, hammer spring related, firing pin related or safety related. Knowing how cops can get trigger job happy and think they know what they’re doing, it’s likely your previous owner “modded” the gun, or possibly took it apart and assembled it incorrectly. I’d say if you are comfortable taking it apart, do so and clean it, and take care on inspecting the parts and check for modifications. If something looks modded note the part and list it, then look to replace the part with a factory unmodded part. Considering the FP indents look weak, it could be any of my previously mentioned areas, look at those carefully.

Trapr

[x101airborne]

Thank you. I dont know much about the Smith semi-autos. In fact I know less than most. I am more of a Beretta or HK person. I think I will see if there is a local gunsmith first, then if not I will try it myself. If it EVER rains here again I might pull up a youtube video and give it a go anyway just to learn.

[bobm]

I’ll see if I can dig up my old armorer manual. I have an idea or two in my head what’s wrong but I haven’t taken one apart in over 15 years.

[x101airborne]

Dec 18, 2023 8:22:43 GMT -5 bobm said:

I’ll see if I can dig up my old armorer manual. I have an idea or two in my head what’s wrong but I haven’t taken one apart in over 15 years.

That would be very kind of you and very much appreciated. 

[revolvercranker]

Hey Trey what happens if you load the chamber, push the lever to drop the hammer, then push the lever back up? Will it fire then? You can try this with an empty primed case.

[x101airborne]

Dec 19, 2023 12:16:04 GMT -5 revolvercranker said:

Hey Trey what happens if you load the chamber, push the lever to drop the hammer, then push the lever back up? Will it fire then? You can try this with an empty primed case.

I have tried it on the range as if I am using it to protect my life. No joy. No fire. Dont trust it yet. If I leave it hammer back and dont use the decocker (safety lever) it is much like carrying a 1911 with the safety off. 

[bobm]

I found the manual tonight. To make sure I understand, when you pull the trigger in DA mode, the hammer comes back and releases?

If so, the manual lists five possible causes and remedies
Disconnecter too long——stone tail

Defective drawbar————- replace (Might be hard to find one)

Bad drawbar spring—————replace

Worn hammer notches———replace hammer

New drawbar might have too much material at the radius——-CAREFULLY file radius with a 5/32 chainsaw file.

Before doing anything else you also might check to make sure the drawbar plunger is properly in the dimple of the drawbar. You could probably easily check this by removing the grip and manipulating the drawbar

If I’m misunderstanding what happens when you pull the trigger let me know

[x101airborne]

I sure appreciate it. Thank you much! I dont even understand the names of some of the parts you describe so I might have to confer with First Sargent Google. Like I said, I aint much of a Smith DA person.

[revolvercranker]

x101 here's a link to Gun Parts Inc. This is the diagram of the model 4516 which is very similar your 4513T. Anyways it shows the drawbar and it's plunger plus spring. The drawbar in #7 and the spring and plunger are #8 and #9. Just to show you what they look like. The link: www.brownells.co.uk/Schematics/Smith-Wesson/Autoloading-Pistols/Smith-Wesson-4516-R1-Schematic

By the way they do have the drawbar for YOUR model and it's about $80. Just saying, you probably don't need it.

[kgb]

Sounds like a pretty fine line of the hammer not falling quite far enough to have enough energy to set off primers. I have encountered that with a S&W revolver that had a lighter than factory mainspring. DA releases the hammer at a point not quite as far back as when in SA mode and that difference was enough to not fire some brands of primer. Holding the trigger down after the misfires, thumbing the hammer back to engage the SA notch while releasing the trigger to catch it there, I got 100 percent ignition.

Worn parts in the automatic that let the hammer fall before it had compressed the mainspring enough to reach a threshold of energy to ignite a primer sounds like what the manual is describing. I assume there is a similar relationship in a DA/SA auto to what I found in that DA/SA revolver: single action operation produces a harder strike from the hammer than DA mode, and in some cases it's a critical difference.

A new mainspring might cure the gun if it's not really worn parts causing this.

Sounds like the decocker works as in the 39xx guns, decocks the gun and can act a safety by disabling the trigger if you leave it in the down position, same as not having a magazine inserted. Does not act as a traditional safety for a cocked hammer.