Cap and ball revolvers

[CraigC]

For me, the Colt pattern guns are just far more appealing. I have a couple Remingtons but they just don't make my dobber quiver like a nice Colt 1860, 1861 or 1851. I also really like the Dragoon but find the Walker to be a novelty at best.

15-20yrs ago, Uberti's were noticeably better than Pietta's. Then about 2010/2011, Pietta made changes that significantly improved their guns. They also changed some dimensions that affected the way the Kirst gated conversions fit their guns. Then in the last five years, there seems to be a tangible upswing with both manufacturers. I really can't place one over the in a new gun. I have both from the last year or two and they are excellent. I wouldn't fool with ASM or any of the others more than 20yrs old. The newer guns are just better.

That said, there are differences between them and their respective models that one might want to be aware of. Piettas have long had the dreaded "Pietta tail", a bit more dramatic flare at the bottom of the grip frame. There's a good bit of debate about it and I don't see a problem but some folks get their knickers in a twist over it. The steel gripped "London" Navies have the more correct shape. Pietta's 1861 is a little off, the Uberti version is much better. With 1860's and 1851's, pick your poison. Uberti is the only maker for the Walker and Dragoons and they are very good. ALL Uberti's will have the short arbor but it's a relatively easy fix.

I'm going to do something I wouldn't normally do but buyer beware if you get Gary Barnes to convert a newer Pietta for you.

[coogs]

Thanks all for the input! I see something in the near future........and, no, I am NOT getting rid of any Maxi's to fund this operation! Thanks again, Jack.

[gnappi]

The SS Ruger is a hard one to beat.

[45dragoon]

Very nice writeup on cap and ball revolvers Mr. Taffin! I'm sure most folks have heard the same about the "top strap" revolvers having the upper hand in the strength dept. However, that hasn't been my experience over my time of shooting these revolvers (since the late 70's). My first cap gun was a Remington platform and it was used heavily for about 10 yrs until I bent it loading/ shooting (what I think) was too hard lead. Needless to say I was disappointed about the compromised Remington but I wasn't disheartened because by the early 80's I had found the beautiful Colt open-top platform revolvers!!
Of course not knowing that the revolvers were lacking in the "build to design" aspect (not TRUE mechanically), I kept my local gun shop in business just buying new wedges to replace my mangled wedges from the previous weekend!! Mainly for the Walkers and Dragoons since I didn't realize you could shoot "less than maximum" charges!!
Late 90's my focus changed and had to put kids through school and such . . . but after the youngest was out of the nest, I naturally came back to shooting but found that it would have to be "in" a range in my particular county because of a significant increase in population!! So, you can't shoot bp in indoor ranges (tends to burn them down!) so how do I shoot my favorite revolvers with smokeless?!!! The answer was Kirst conversion cylinders!! The problem with it was smokeless does the same thing to wedges . . . only quicker!! WHY?!!!
The answer was found in some articles written by Larson Pettifogger in which he explains the importance of the arbor length and the MECHANICAL connection (solid arbor end contact with the barrel assy under tension) to allow the 2 assemblies to react as a single unit (suddenly it all made sense!!). This fitment by the way also is what determines the "endshake" with the wedge driven in. Being driven in ( Colt's instructions) means it's no longer the "referee" between 2 battling assemblies but an engineered design element to lock the assemblies together.
This means basically all "reproduced open-top platform revolvers" have what's known as a "short arbor" (no end contact) and can (and eventually will) suffer the ill effects of self destruction.
- Note Pietta corrected this very problem around 2011 /12 , Uberti refuses to recognize it as a problem.

All that being said, it's an easy fix and when done, the revolver can in fact handle modern smokeless loads with ease. It's ultimately a rather robust design (from the mechanical age when they knew of such things!! Lol). In my own experience I've been able to prove this by testing the platform with Mr. Kirst's cylinders installed in Dragoons as well as 1860 Army belt pistols and shooting loads that prove detrimental to my own "top strap" Model P Frontier copy (Pietta).
The Dragoons handle 45C +p with ease and I've been shooting 45acp +p's in my pair of Uberti '60 Armys. The round count in the first Army is about 1500 to date with about 400 being Hornady +p Critical Duty rounds. The reason I've chosen Uberti as the "test bed" is I personally like the quality, variety (they make all 4 sizes Colt produced) and the barrels have fast twist ( 1:16" /18") rifling.

Anyway, I just wanted to let folks know that when built correctly (as designed) and set up with tight tolerances, these revolvers are very impressive indeed!!
Mr. Colt would probably be surprised!!

Mike

[taffin]

Dec 15, 2023 7:19:13 GMT -5 gnappi said:

The SS Ruger is a hard one to beat.

postimg.cc/2LYmsrrn

[CraigC]

Some folks on another forum posted some nonsense about avoiding new Uberti guns because QC had taken a dive. Meanwhile, these two from last year, both ordered from Midway are among the nicest I own.

[revolvercranker]

I have a newer Pietta 1860 Colt and there are zero flys on them. I have a target to show Taffin here, but first let me explain I've owned three Ruger Old Armies in stainless and yes, they do shoot like target revolvers. This target was shot with my Pietta 1860 Colt using Hornady .452 roundballs over top 30 grains of Triple Seven for a muzzle velocity of tad over 1000 fps. I was loading a little hotter, but it was stinging my hand a little and was vicious. I know people don't like to hear the "one ragged hole" story, but that is exactly what this is. The other holes in the target were testing with different projectiles, that is cast balls, and hollow base conicals, until I hit about the load mentioned. Please forgive me for the target matter, I shoot a lot and shoot at whatever targets are handy. Now to put this target into perspective it was shot at 35 yards, not 25 or 20. This was from a airsoft bb filled bag off the top of the retaining wall to my garage. This revolver will chase the heels of the ROA.  The group of interest here is just about right at the 12 o'clock portion of the black target dot.  I shot other targets that day and it consistantly shoots like that. 

[revolvercranker]

Mr Taffin, my post wasn't devious in any matter, I mentioned the target for you to show you how those 1860 Pietta replicas can shoot. There were a few minor modifications I had to perform on the revolver. One was to replaces the front sight to the proper height for my shooting and the other was the cylinder throats were .450 which was actually a wee bit smaller then the groove diameter of the barrel. I reamed them to .452 and the revolver immediately started shooting much much better.  I did pull the revolver apart and polished up some of the key components, which I may say really didn't need much.  I also was very impressed with the workmanship of the internals.  Maybe I got a fluke Pietta? LOL  

[taffin]

You are right on the money! United States manufactured sixguns should all be fitted and finished and shoot as well as the Pietta and Uberti revolvers. I have yet to run into one (with extensive experience with more than 100 examples) that was not a good shooter. The current ones are certainly well made sixguns. Your Pietta is definitely not a fluke in my experience.

[revolvercranker]

Dec 15, 2023 13:17:15 GMT -5 taffin said:

You are right on the money! United States manufactured sixguns should all be fitted and finished and shoot as well as the Pietta and Uberti revolvers. I have yet to run into one (with extensive experience with more than 100 examples) that was not a good shooter. The current ones are certainly well made sixguns. Your Pietta is definitely not a fluke in my experience.

Well that is comforting Mr Taffin.  I once had a Belgium made 1860, only one I've seen since, that was beautifully crafted. It had the the grip frame silver or nickol plated. Don't know what the metal was underneath whether brass or steel.  I shot her loose in not time and that was with the normal BP loads as I'm not sure the substitutes were out yet.  It was the early 70's. 

As an aside I use to shoot a lot of Pyrodex.  That was until I got a flame cut on the strap of my stainless ROA and pitted hammer face. At that time was I is Ohio and it wasn't a rifle state for deer, so it was indeed a big time BP muzzleloader state. I had two friends, father and son, that were very knowledgeable BP shooters they told me the negatives of Pyrodex. The father said it burned hotter and was more corrosive than BP.  I had called on Hodgdon about what happened using in it my ROA and they pushed it off on Ruger!!!  I didn't call Ruger nor did I blame them.  I just gave it up at that point. I'm by no means an authority to try changes shooters minds on whether to us Pyrodex or not, but I love 777.  Less fouling, easy to clean out, and I find it now very corrosive at all.  Thanks for your input Mr Taffin. 

[bigbore5]

I use 777 over pyrodex for those reasons in cartridges. But a good dunk in hot water still follows every session.

[taffin]

I USE MORE 777 THAN ANYTHING ELSE

[longoval]

I despise Pyrodex. That stuff must be made of rust. I switched to exclusively shooting black powder. I have never tried 777.

[sharps4590]

If I couldn't get real black powder I would use T-7. I used to shoot a LOT of BPCR and rendezvous with muzzleloaders and huntd with both for years. That isn't counting the C&B revolvers and BPC revolver and other rifle cartridges just for fun and education. So, I have a surfeit of Ffg and Fffg. I tried a bottle of P and RS Pyrojunk when it first came out. I used about 1/2 bottle of RS before I gave it all away. Never opened the P. That was over 40 years ago.

[parallaxbill]

Dec 15, 2023 17:10:33 GMT -5 longoval said:

I despise Pyrodex. That stuff must be made of rust. I switched to exclusively shooting black powder. I have never tried 777.

Same here.

I have some Pyrodex that no one will even let me give it to them.