Deep seating HP issue

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2023 10:56:00 GMT -5 boolitdesigner said:

You need to check the diameter of the expander die shank. It is probably a little too tight. Have another one made with the shank longer than the seating depth and about 0.0015” under bullet diameter.

Thats what Ive been leaning towards. Do you know much about the NOE plugs?

[boolitdesigner]

No experience with them. I would use the typical RCBS style cut to the dimensions given.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2023 10:56:00 GMT -5 boolitdesigner said:

You need to check the diameter of the expander die shank. It is probably a little too tight. Have another one made with the shank longer than the seating depth and about 0.0015” under bullet diameter.

I removed my rcbs expander plug. The stem is long enough for regular seated bullets, but when deep seating the stem is not long enough. The brass is not expanded deep enough. Increasing flare only works the brass too much. I ordered a setup from NOE. Hopefully gets me going but if not I may try custom rcbs stem. I appreciate the helpful responses.

[longoval]

If the expander is the culprit, then why are your solid nose groups not affected? Are the pentas sized to a larger diameter or maybe they are just being seated deeper?

[boolitdesigner]

Points:
- are they both powder coated
- are they both deep seated
- are they both the same alloy and hardness
These things affect results!
The soft powder coated bullets are soft and the base could be sizing non uniformly going from expanded area to non expander area. Your prose suggests this is happening.

[Deleted]

Dec 4, 2023 16:23:15 GMT -5 boolitdesigner said:

Points:
- are they both powder coated
- are they both deep seated
- are they both the same alloy and hardness
These things affect results!
The soft powder coated bullets are soft and the base could be sizing non uniformly going from expanded area to non expander area. Your prose suggests this is happening.

The lead is from the same batch. Im not sure what is causing the issue, but I have my guns sighted in for the solid, so probably sticking with them. I have about 500 of the pentas ready to load, so trying to get the issue sorted so I can just shoot them rather than remelt.

[Deleted]

Dec 4, 2023 15:10:57 GMT -5 longoval said:

If the expander is the culprit, then why are your solid nose groups not affected? Are the pentas sized to a larger diameter or maybe they are just being seated deeper?

I think the penta hp has more room for the lead to move variably. Maybe the geometry of the penta angles allows it. Perhaps a true cone acts better concentrically? The solid distributes the force more evenly. I dont know.

[revolvercranker]

That big Penta point cavity in the bullet changes it's center of gravity some so that may affect it's accuracy. But this is what I am thinking. I'm thinking your RCBS expander/flare isn't long enough in the expanding section and not expanding the case deep enough for deep seating of the bullet. That's one thing. The other is powder coat is slicker then Owl poop and allowing the base of the bullet to slide deeper into the part of the case that wasn't expanded and that is sizing part of the base down more squeezing into that tight area. That too would affect accuracy. A little abot the flaring action. You only need enough flare for the base of the bullet to fit into it so it doesn't shave the bullet. I hope the NOE expander/flare you are getting isn't designed after the Lyman M die because in my opinion thoses aren't so great. They leave a fairly sharp corner on the ledge it puts into the case and it's enough to damage a flat base bullet and size it down too. Also the part of the case mouth that is expanded larger doesn't crimp in as well. They are, in my opinion, a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. I know NOE makes M type expanders for rifles, but not sure what he makes for pistol/revolvers. You'd probably been better to have him make you an RCBS type expander with a long expanding part of the expander/flare part. There are enough people with lathes that could have made that part for you.

[Deleted]

Dec 4, 2023 18:33:17 GMT -5 revolvercranker said:

That big Penta point cavity in the bullet changes it's center of gravity some so that may affect it's accuracy. But this is what I am thinking. I'm thinking your RCBS expander/flare isn't long enough in the expanding section and not expanding the case deep enough for deep seating of the bullet. That's one thing. The other is powder coat is slicker then Owl poop and allowing the base of the bullet to slide deeper into the part of the case that wasn't expanded and that is sizing part of the base down more squeezing into that tight area. That too would affect accuracy. A little abot the flaring action. You only need enough flare for the base of the bullet to fit into it so it doesn't shave the bullet. I hope the NOE expander/flare you are getting isn't designed after the Lyman M die because in my opinion thoses aren't so great. They leave a fairly sharp corner on the ledge it puts into the case and it's enough to damage a flat base bullet and size it down too. Also the part of the case mouth that is expanded larger doesn't crimp in as well. They are, in my opinion, a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. I know NOE makes M type expanders for rifles, but not sure what he makes for pistol/revolvers. You'd probably been better to have him make you an RCBS type expander with a long expanding part of the expander/flare part. There are enough people with lathes that could have made that part for you.

Good points. I will find out in a few days when the noe plug gets here. You are correct about the rcbs plug being too short.

[revolvercranker]

If I would have known about this early professor I would have made you one on the lathe.

Tony

[Deleted]

Dec 4, 2023 22:14:41 GMT -5 revolvercranker said:

If I would have known about this early professor I would have made you one on the lathe.

Tony

I may call on your skills. Thanks.

[revolvercranker]

Dec 4, 2023 18:33:17 GMT -5 revolvercranker said:

That big Penta point cavity in the bullet changes it's center of gravity some so that may affect it's accuracy. But this is what I am thinking. I'm thinking your RCBS expander/flare isn't long enough in the expanding section and not expanding the case deep enough for deep seating of the bullet. That's one thing. The other is powder coat is slicker then Owl poop and allowing the base of the bullet to slide deeper into the part of the case that wasn't expanded and that is sizing part of the base down more squeezing into that tight area. That too would affect accuracy. A little abot the flaring action. You only need enough flare for the base of the bullet to fit into it so it doesn't shave the bullet. I hope the NOE expander/flare you are getting isn't designed after the Lyman M die because in my opinion thoses aren't so great. They leave a fairly sharp corner on the ledge it puts into the case and it's enough to damage a flat base bullet and size it down too. Also the part of the case mouth that is expanded larger doesn't crimp in as well. They are, in my opinion, a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. I know NOE makes M type expanders for rifles, but not sure what he makes for pistol/revolvers. You'd probably been better to have him make you an RCBS type expander with a long expanding part of the expander/flare part. There are enough people with lathes that could have made that part for you.

Here is someting the ballistician Allan Jones just put out about the Pent Point Hollow Point.  The five points make expansion easier and more symmetrical by reducing the "hoop strength" of the cavity walls.  Speer use to make special Lawman ammuniton loaded witha  Pent Hollow Point jacketed bullet.