jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,754
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Post by jeffh on Nov 4, 2023 16:06:49 GMT -5
....Considering the possibilities, the better cartridge to deal with is the buckhammer...
I think that could be a true statement for me specifically - not speaking for anyone else.
I prefer single-shots and levers, so the rim is a plus. Yeah, I know, you can use rimless in them, but I like the rim.
You could probably make brass from the ubiquitous 30/30 and not be hobbled with proprietary cases which could be discontinued or back-burnered.
It meets the requirements for hunting deer in MY state, which is no small piece of a pie when you look at how many are out there hunting deer. These areas are typically high-density populations. I see lots and lots of 350L on shelves and fewer and fewer slugs on shelves these days. Anyone who was selling shotgun slugs will want to fill that hole in their sales.
It appears as thought it is appropriate for the Contender, which is my preferred means of projecting projectiles these days.
Nothing at all against the 35 Remington, but I'd much sooner do a 360 than a 35R myself.
The only thing I think is WRONG with the 360 is the dorky name.
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 4, 2023 16:19:34 GMT -5
The 35 Remington is dear to me, but definitely has some shortcomings.
Speaking from decades of TC Experience, it's not for everyone.
The shoulder on the 35 Remington has always been a problem. Not because it's a slight shoulder, but rather it's position.
Brass and ammo tend to have the shoulder set farther back than it should be. This is done intentionally due to the lack of any camming action of the orginal Remington Pump Actions and Autoloaders.
In the TCs, we started with new brass. By seating the bullets out to engage the rifling when the action was closed.
This allowed brass to fireform the shoulder forward without stretching the brass.
That being said, it's still a fine cartridge and it's long life is definitive proof of this.
The 360 Buckhammer was designed to be used within State's Hunting Requirements.
It should be a fine TC Cartridge due to the rim and shorter powder column. The rim alone will make it a winner in single shots and lever guns.
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Post by revolvercranker on Nov 4, 2023 16:47:21 GMT -5
Encore64 Let me insure you that the shoulder is not set back from the shoulder in the chamber. The shoulder is what headspaces the cartridge. Thing about what you said in this next sentence where you said "This allowed brass to fireform the shoulder forward without stretching the brass" That is totally wrong. If the shoulder moved forward then the case got longer. So with the case head against the breech face and the case shoulder now against the chamber shoulder did the case magically get more alloy in it? When a bottle neck cartridge has excess headspace it stretches the case and eventually you have a head separation.
Yes the 35 Remington is a wonderful cartridge and it's longevity over the many decades proves that out. Of the guns that Remington built for the 35 Remington the early pumps weren't strong. The next evolution of pumps for Remington, starting with the Model 76, were very strong indeed as they have a rotary lugged bolt and lock up very secure. The Model 8 and Model 81 semi autos also have a two lugged bolt and they too are strong. The few Remington and Winchester bolt actions in 35 Remington (hens teeth) are very strong also.
The 350 Legend got a pretty big head start on the 360 Buckhammer. It remains to be seen if the 360 survive and as more states modify their cartridge laws for deer hunting it may die sooner.
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Post by revolvercranker on Nov 4, 2023 17:00:03 GMT -5
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 4, 2023 18:08:18 GMT -5
What I posted is accurate and I stand by it.
It was common knowledge amongst thousands of TC Shooters and published in a number of books about TCs.
If you choose to see things differently, that's fine.
I'm not here to argue or debate which cartridge is best.
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Post by revolvercranker on Nov 4, 2023 18:31:42 GMT -5
Encore a TC is treated entirely different then most other types of actions.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,754
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Post by jeffh on Nov 4, 2023 18:33:17 GMT -5
"...Notice that a 20 inche barrel for the Bushmaster...."
Pretty much why I completely ignore the plotted* quantifications provided by those who seek to sell me something.
Take the worst picture of a super-model and compare it to the best picture of any girl I know and any girl I know will look better than the super-model.
OK, that may be a bit of a stretch, but not nearly the stretch some of these charts make.
*"plotted" can be taken two ways within the context of selling "stuff."
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Post by revolvercranker on Nov 4, 2023 19:43:18 GMT -5
jeffh I agree with you. That 20 inch barrel was the first I thing I noticed. Many here talk about a longer barrel like 24 inches. I'm not saying the 360 is a bad round, just saying it's about equal to the 35 Rem. For that matter the 350 Legend is right there too! It's just a shame that some states have these restrictions.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,754
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Post by jeffh on Nov 4, 2023 22:02:51 GMT -5
... It's just a shame that some states have these restrictions.
It's really not a shame - not at all. The type of hunting presented by the terrain, development, local flora, etc. in northwest Ohio makes the guns/cartridges which meet the restrictions more than adequate and do not hinder the hunter in any way aside from not getting to kill something with his XXmm PRC, CRP, XYZ, or whatever the latest long-range wonder may be, or his tricked out berm-churner AR. OK, if Billie Bermchurner has an AR in one of the legal cartridges, he actually CAN use it to hunt deer here, but he can only have three rounds total in the gun. Trust me, there are enough yahoos out there who "hunt" once a year who will let the lead fly in a desperate attempt to bag a deer that this requirement is necessary. It matters not a wit to a real hunter.
By the way, I do NOT work with or for the ODNR and had no part in creating these rules.
This is a densely-populated area with very, very few things to safely stop a bullet. There are houses, barns, farm equipment, farm animals, CHILDREN, etc. in every direction. Using anything more than some of the old-timey cartridges or pistol-cartridges in rifles and carbines is more than the hunting opportunities require.
Why can't I use my anemic old 30/30 or 35 Remington? Well, someone has the onerous task of drawing the lines and that's not easy. Slicing and dicing it all to prevent dangerous loopholes or schemers' schemes, who see any rule as a personal challenge to their cleverness, while making the lines actually work for and benefit hunters is not an easy job. I think the ODNR did well with what they had. They also listened and helped hunters move from the original handguns-only regs to rifles or carbines with handgun cartridges and then further refines things to include many cartridges which weren't originally handgun cartridges as well.
If I lived out west, in a sparely populated area, or in deep forest, yeah it's be a shame to have such rules, but not where I live. I really like that I can use a center-fire rifle or pistol to hunt deer in my state. I LOVE the cartridges and guns which are allowed and they are what I'd use anyway, because I personally would NOT want to send a stoutly-constructed, 160 grain 7mm bullet out across an open field where neighbors' houses and tractors, pets, cows and KIDS are well within the EFFECTIVE range of that bullet, even after it bounced off the frozen clay soil. Sure, any yahoo can send one off into the wild blue and have it go beyond its effective range and hurt or kill someone, but I can't see a way to make a safe shot here with something like that.
You can use an AR if you want. You can even use a suppressor if you want. We don't have the 1.8" restriction in Ohio, but I don't see it as a hindrance anyway. A 200 yard shot is a long shot here, but if there's nothing beyond the deer to stop the bullet, you shouldn't take it anyway, so no complaint on the rules here - not by me. I've personally not heard anyone else hear complain either.
Your comment was the most polite I've seen and thank you for not being snide about it. So many, to whom it does not matter one bit, call them "stupid," "silly," "ridiculous," etc. without having a clue WHY. And WHY does it even matter to them? I can understand how it doesn't make sense to those who don't live where those rules exist, but when writers and bloggers do it, I get a bit... irritated. THEY should do their RESEARCH or just stop writing. Uninformed commentary is irresponsible.
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Post by lar4570 on Nov 4, 2023 22:45:45 GMT -5
Encore64 Let me insure you that the shoulder is not set back from the shoulder in the chamber. The shoulder is what headspaces the cartridge. Thing about what you said in this next sentence where you said "This allowed brass to fireform the shoulder forward without stretching the brass" That is totally wrong. If the shoulder moved forward then the case got longer. So with the case head against the breech face and the case shoulder now against the chamber shoulder did the case magically get more alloy in it? When a bottle neck cartridge has excess headspace it stretches the case and eventually you have a head separation. "In the TCs, we started with new brass. By seating the bullets out to engage the rifling when the action was closed. This allowed brass to fireform the shoulder forward without stretching the brass." Cranker- Encore64's post told you how to set the shoulder forward without stretching the case. You seat the bullet out to engage the rifling so that the case head is held back against the breach. Now when the cartridge is fired, the brass expands and forms itself to the chamber. Now you have a fired case that matches your chamber. To reload, you neck size only so that your cases won't stretch. If they were full length resized, and the shoulder was set back, then upon firing the firing pin hits the primer, this pushes the entire cartridge forward initially. The powder burns, creates gasses which expand the case, the case walls are held against the chamber. As pressure continues to build the case head is pushed back against the breach face. This stretches the case making it thinner towards the base. Continuing to full length resize and fire will make the brass way too thin and that's where a case head separation comes from. Encore64's post explained how to avoid this. |
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Post by revolvercranker on Nov 4, 2023 22:54:19 GMT -5
lar45-70 Expand means stretch, that's all I'm saying.
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 5, 2023 5:16:18 GMT -5
Expand does not mean stretch in case length. That's why the bullet is used to hold the case in place.
Just as with the Ackley Improved, the case is held in place by the bullet, rim or sometimes shoulder so the case expands to fill the chamber. This eliminates the stretch.
J.D. Jones recommended this method for his wildcats too. Even with his 225 Winchester based cartridges.
The rim would hold the cartridge, but the case would stretch in length as the shoulder moved forward. So, a bullet was seated long to engage the rifling. This causes the cases to blow out instead of forward and increases case life.
It's really quite simple and Handloading 101...
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,754
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Post by jeffh on Nov 5, 2023 9:05:12 GMT -5
Expand does not mean stretch in case length. That's why the bullet is used to hold the case in place...
On my first AI (7x57), I used up some brass fairly quickly in fire-forming. The fellow who made the barrel told me to "oil the cases," which I was reluctant to do. Didn't take long to realized that seating a bullet out to touch the lands kept the base of the case against the bolt face and simply blew the shoulder OUT without stretching.
The idea that a AI chamber should allow one to headspace on the shoulder of the original case design is flawed in my opinion and seating the bullet out is required to prevent a significant stretch upon fireforming.
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