.414SM,…….load development

[bigbrowndog]

2000fps sounds quite slow for a 27” barrel, even an encore.

Trapr

[fre3]

30.6 grains

[bigbrowndog]

The H4227 loads I tried 26gr. and 26.5gr. the 26gr/250HP, produced decent accuracy at 40yds with a 1.75” group, but then went on the produce a 4.5” group at 115yds. It produced right at 1500fps corrected to true muzzle velocity. 1470, 1510, 1466, 1483, 1491 was from the chrono at 15 ft.
The 4227 powder seems to be acknowledged as a more suitable powder for the powder column and it produces good velocity and less muzzle blast than H110.
I’ll spend a bit more time working with 4227, as it works well in both my 500Max and 357max. A 4.5” group at 115yds, definitely warrants further investigation, as a side note, the H110 load that fired the 1” group at 50yds produced a lackluster 14” group at the same 115yds. It was fired just prior to the 4227 load, so under the same conditions.

Trapr

[x101airborne]

Are you stocked on 4227? I might have a bit.

[bigbrowndog]

Always willing to purchase more for the right price.

BTW, it seems other than Lee’s experience with aa1680, his results and mine are paralleling each other. My velocities with H110 have been impressive and accuracy is good, but fleeting or sporadic. H4227 has been providing good accuracy and very similar velocities to his results and both accuracy and velocity have been consistent. I can’t explain my results with aa1680 and why velocities differ so much, but H4227 has proven itself in both of my other tall rounds and so far it performs great in the .414 as well. I’ll be spending more time with it in the next few weeks and trying to lock down a good load.

Trapr

[lar4570]

CFE BLK might be an interesting powder to try if you have access to some.

[bigbrowndog]

I went and retried aa1680 and used a different LR primer, velocity results were the same or at least within 50fps. Accuracy was outstanding, once I isolated a chamber that would throw its round 2-3 inches from the main group. H4227 continues to be my best velocity performer and still give good accuracy, 1500fps with Sixshots HP 250gr bullet. Two loads with 1680 gave 1.25” and 1.375” groups at 55yards, but still only regular 41mag velocities. H4227 is providing sub 2” and 2” groups at50-55 yards but 1500fps. Tomorrow I’ll check bullet drops and ballistic data out to 200, hopefully, winds picked up to 30mph this afternoon.

Trapr

[x101airborne]

I hope it all goes well. Today is going to be breezy and cool. I have lots of shop work to get done after feeding. Might even play hookey a little and cast up some bullets for the 41 calibers.

[Lee Martin]

It's odd you're seeing such slow speeds with 1680. But the flip side is it prints tight. The only other thing I can think of is around load density. AA1680 likes to be compressed. My loads were, but that was using different bullets and seating depths.

Either way, 4227 is giving you stout velocity. Maybe just stick with that.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

[bradshaw]

Feb 18, 2022 9:48:35 GMT -5 Lee Martin said:

It's odd you're seeing such slow speeds with 1680. But the flip side is it prints tight. The only other thing I can think of is around load density. AA1680 likes to be compressed. My loads were, but that was using different bullets and seating depths.

Either way, 4227 is giving you stout velocity. Maybe just stick with that.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

*****

My handholds for SRM prototype .357 Maximums settled on IMR/Hodgdon 4227 short-stick and Winchester 680 ball powders. Accurate 1680 seems the spitting image of Win 680 and I have interchanged data. Also, I couldn’t detect a difference between IMR 4227 and Hodgdon 4227 at the highest level of silhouette performance. We know from the horse’s mouth Hodgdon labels Olin 296 as H110. Thus, Hodgdon’s exact interchange of data. And two more (not a complete list): Hodgdon markets Win 760 as H-414; markets Win 231 as HP-38.

Case length affects powder dynamics. (Bullet weight also affects powder dynamics, but that’s another story.) The .38 Special (1899) is the mother of the .357 Magnum (1935). The .357 Mag is the mother of the .357 Maximum (1981). All three cartridges boast intrinsic accuracy. The fuel to get there isn’t always the same. A bullet which likes Alliant 2400 in .38 Special may prefer 296 in .357 Mag, and 4227 or 1680 in .357 Maximum. Top velocity----even with small Extreme Spread & Standard Deviation----does not guarantee accuracy. Win 296/H110 provides accuracy with velocity in .357 Mag, but only velocity in .357 Maximum.

VELOCITY was a main objective of Remington in early development of the .357 Maximum. Whereas, may handloads focussed on 180 and 200 grain bullets and ACCURACY @ 100 yards from SRM prototypes. Remington focussed on the chronograph; I focussed on the target.

While I haven’t worked with the .414 Super Mag, the .357 Maximum and .445 Super Mag bracket it, and both favor 4227 and 680/1680 for accuracy. I might try try some loads with Vihtavuori N110, IMR SR4759 and Accurate 5744. And, I’d consider IMR 4198 and H4198 compressed under heavy bullets. It’s possible 4198 might produce super accuracy (only the best balanced bullets need apply), as it did in .357 Maximum with the Speer 200 TMJ. Accuracy on the order of 5x5=3.5-inches @ 200 meters, Dan Wesson M-40 V8 1:16” twist, factory irons. Down side: Long BARREL TIME, low velocity, requires perfect FOLLOW THROUGH.
David Bradshaw

[bigbrowndog]

Went to fire three loads today at 175yds, to check if ballistic data was correct and if accuracy stuck to the bullet at distance. My rest was standing over the hood of my truck with the gun rested on my shooting bag, supported at the frame only and my hands. I was shooting at a big white steel plate 14x18, with a 6x6 black square painted on it. I wanted to know where I was missing if I did. I am shooting 3 rounds of each load, The first 3 rounds impacted in the black and spanned about 6 inches, Sierra 220FPJ’s at 1400ish FPS, one of the slower aa1680 loads. Drop data was spot on. Next load was one of Sixshots 250HP, 3 of his bullets landed in the upper half of the black and spanned about 4”. It was a 4227 load pushing the 250gr. bullet right at a 1500fps avg. The third load was also a 250HP, but the wind had picked up by then and even me holding on target was not happening. I decided to move in to 130yd. and again the same plate with painted 6x6 square. I found some leftover ammo from previous load sessions, 210Speer and 210XTP with H110 pushing bullets at 1600fps. Both loads had 4 rounds, so I sent each down range and was quite surprised at the level of accuracy provided, considering it was H110. Both loads landed bullets in 4” and 4.5” groups, I’m going to have to load some more and see if the load is consistent. The remaining 250HP load would deliver the same level of accuracy but again simply regular 41 mag velocities.

Lee, I am willing to look or something in the 265/270gr. range an if I could get 1400fps with them then at least it’s an improvement over a regular 41mag. I don’t know what load density is like on the 250HP but it is deep seated to an OAL of 1.972” because the nose is too long to fit the cylinder and the charge is 26.5gr. and still low velocity 
Trapr

[flyingzebra]

That sounds great

[45MAN]

I USE A LOT OF VV-N110 FOR SUB MAXIMUM 296 LOADS IN 45 COLT ("RUGER ONLY"), 480 RUGER, AND 500 JRH, AND THE "SWEET SPOT" FOR ACCURACY SEEMS TO BE WITH THE BULLET SEATED TOUCHING THE POWDER BUT NOT COMPRESSING IT, i.e. N-110 DOES NOT SEEM TO FAVOR COMPRESSION (CAVEAT: NO MEASUREMENTS, JUST OBSERVATIONS).

1680 MAY BE DIFFERENT, SO MAYBE USE SAME EVERYTHING JUST SEAT A LITTLE DEEPER??

[seminolewind]

Feb 17, 2022 20:56:46 GMT -5 bigbrowndog said:

Accuracy was outstanding, once I isolated a chamber that would throw its round 2-3 inches from the main group.

Trapr

This is an interesting thread and I can apply some of your observations to my loading for the 357 Maximum. Thanks for your efforts to include us.

Your thoughts on the one chamber that throws its round outside the main group would be of interest to me. I wouldn't have expected this in a custom cylinder. I've experienced the same thing in two Ruger SRMs.

[bigbrowndog]

I slugged and measured the throats and the best I could measure out was one was .411 the rest measured out at .4105. It’s not much and I am quite surprised that little bit would create such a disparity, the bullets were sized .410. Considering my caliper doesn’t measure out to ten/thousandths and my micrometer skills are lacking it could very easily be that my measurements are wrong. I’d feel much better using pins but do not have any and 2dogs won’t stay home long enough for me to stop by.
My original SRM has the same issue and I simply mark the chamber with a colored spent case and make sure not to eject it, I normally just shoot and mark chambers that throw a round askew. Then check, recheck, and recheck until I’m certain it was the gun and not me.

I wouldn’t expect a full custom cylinder to have any issues, however this is a recycled 357max cylinder, and there were timing issues with the gun that Jack had to sort out as well. (Hand needed stretching) Perhaps the stacked tolerances all culminate and create an issue on that chamber??? I don’t know, and I’m quite ok with having the gun shoot very well and it be a five shooter. If I decide to go the full custom cylinder route I’ll give a long thought to an oversize or possibly five shot cylinder.

What I’ve noticed is that 250/255gr bullets seem to produce the same relative velocities as 265/270gr bullets do, perhaps 265/270gr is a sweet spot and very efficient. I may contact Sixshot and see if he has any molds for 265gr HP’s. I’m hoping to have this .414 replace my .357max for medium game duties, the accuracy is definitely there now I just need to find the benefit of the stretched frame and 1.6” case.

Trapr