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Post by squawberryman on Oct 23, 2021 11:57:47 GMT -5
Prompted by the recent unfortunate event by Alec Baldwin I wonder what anyones' thoughts are on the the subject. Numerous organizations classify the recent event and others as an accidental discharge, or AD. I don't share that opinion. When something like that happens it is unfortunate, terrible, life changing and many other things but I do not believe it is accidental. If a tree falls on a passing car and kills the driver (A friends wife passed that way) that to me is an accident. If a human finger touches off a round at a/the not desired time I don't consider that an accident. If there is a rule or law warning against an action and that action takes place with detrimental results to me that's not an accident. The result is unintentional, unintended, unfortunate or otherwise but not an accident. I'll call them UD, or unintentional discharge. I have four of those to my credit with thankfully no blood shed. The first was when I was a teenager and knew everything about guns and was testing the half cock safety on a S&W 38, loaded. After the hole in the curtain, pane of glass, and outside fence panel were observed I had to make the worst telephone call I can remember. The other three are for another day. So what say you?
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Post by bushog on Oct 23, 2021 12:31:26 GMT -5
I shot a hole in my garage door with a .338 win mag. with an unloaded rifle.
Thank God it didn't do any damage except to the door.
Not a proud moment.
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Post by mark500 on Oct 23, 2021 12:39:23 GMT -5
It was Thell Reeds daughter handling the guns on set.
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Post by squawberryman on Oct 23, 2021 12:46:13 GMT -5
Let's try not to turn this into an Alec thread. I'm curious to know your thoughts on matters such as this. I'm not looking for a validation of my opinion, just what is yours. Like Greg I too have shot unloaded guns at things.
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Post by mart on Oct 23, 2021 13:00:16 GMT -5
Anything other than an actual, physical malfunction of the gun itself, is a negligent discharge. There are very, very few real accidental discharges. There are an awful lot of negligent discharges.
I’ve seen a total of one AD in my life. I’ve lost track of the scores of NDs I’ve witnessed. I’ve shot trap, skeet and sporting clays weekly for 30+ years, been a firearms instructor for corrections and security agencies, and shot a few hundred thousand rounds in the last 50 years.
The AD was on an old Ithaca 37, 20 gauge. The sear was slightly worn, though I didn’t know it at the time. Shooting skeet it went off when I pushed the safety off. Was pointed down range so other than startling me, no ill results. A couple strokes with a stone and the sear edge was sharpened up and it has never offered to do it again.
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Post by squawberryman on Oct 23, 2021 13:23:37 GMT -5
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,557
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Post by Fowler on Oct 23, 2021 14:05:28 GMT -5
I agree a AD is mechanical, worn sear, broken gun what have you. A negligent discharge is unintended consequences of improper gun handing. At the end of the day for the 4 rules of gun safety are there to protect everyone using and around the use of firearms. Had Alec or anyone else adhered to those rules none of this would have happened.
I know for movies these rules can’t be fully abided by but from what little is known if sounds like it was not during the shooting of a scene.
1-every gun is always loaded 2-do not point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy 3-your finger is never on the trigger until the sights are on the target and you are ready to fire 4-be certain of your target and what is beyond your target
I’m not judging the the unfortunate events in New Mexico but at the very least rules 2,3 and 4 we’re disregarded in those unfortunate events.
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Post by bula on Oct 23, 2021 16:58:16 GMT -5
I do like the clarification between AD and ND's. AGREE.
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Post by Encore64 on Oct 23, 2021 17:01:04 GMT -5
I do like the clarification between AD and ND's. AGREE. Ditto...
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Post by bula on Oct 23, 2021 17:07:52 GMT -5
Sadly, I've had one of each. Also, no recipes for lamps. Sorry.
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kgb
.30 Stingray
Posts: 130
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Post by kgb on Oct 23, 2021 17:31:02 GMT -5
To me the event is something else. Ammunition present when it absolutely should not have been is a failure to follow protocols, whatever those were at the time and place. Maybe a failure to have protocols in place.
Someone is certainly responsible for the accident, the public may even one day know the truth of it. I doubt it is the responsibility of Alec Baldwin, the actor is on the one hand the last person who should be required to perform safety checks in the course of his work. On the other hand, I'd want to inspect every chamber/magazine/round/whatever for any firearm I was required to aim at another person.
I'd also keep a lamp if I shot one, just like my buddy gave me the chronograph screen support after he shot it and signed with a Sharpie.
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Post by squawberryman on Oct 23, 2021 17:50:45 GMT -5
Ouch Bula, ouch. Granted Kim Kardashian probably has someone pour her Cokes for her but I don't care who tells me the gun is cold, I'm checking. If that ever offended anyone, I probably shouldn't be shooting with them in the first place.
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Post by potatojudge on Oct 23, 2021 17:57:16 GMT -5
Gun folks get dogmatic about ND vs AD, but ND is a subset of AD. An accident caused by negligence. Saying a ND is also an AD isn't to say there wasn't negligence at play. In that respect, AD and ND can be used interchangeably understanding that not all ADs are NDs. One is just a more specific term.
To call something a negligent discharge is to imply fault of the person holding the gun. In the case of movie sets, I don't believe that's always the case. Calling this an accidental or unintentional discharge with negligence yet to be assigned pending full investigation is more useful.
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Post by bradshaw on Oct 23, 2021 18:40:11 GMT -5
Fermin briefly recounted the discharge of a Colt 1911 Delta Elite 10mm Auto tossed from a car, it sounds like accidental discharge and negligent discharge got married. The gun went off without anyone on the trigger. Yet the event was triggered by negligence. Criminal negligence.
I call a slam fire an accidental discharge. Example: sear fails to hold hammer, cocking piece, or firing pin as bolt or slide slams into battery. (Or the mechanism allows firing pin to contact the primer as bolt/slide slams. For this reason, some actions warrant an extra stiff primer.)
Negligent discharge implies a person's lack of control over the firearm in a his or her hand(s), with an absence of MUZZLE CONTROL. That injury or death may result proves MUZZLE CONTROL comes before TRIGGER CONTROL. When muzzle control rules handling, you may experience an accidental discharge without anyone getting shot.
There are times one must have his or her finger inside the trigger guard for fast action. Small snubnose revolvers a prime example.
Another example why muzzle control comes before trigger control. Should firearm discharge as you pick it up, muzzle control saves the day. The guy who pulls his gun by the trigger instead of drawing it by the handle practices neither muzzle control nor trigger control.
In the world of motion, muzzle control and trigger control are partners in the COORDINATION of MARKSMANSHIP. David Bradshaw
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Post by boolitdesigner on Oct 23, 2021 19:02:50 GMT -5
Examples of weird things. A loaded 1903 Colt coming into a gunsmith with one of the pins holding the working parts in place missing........ pulling the slide back slightly fired the gun. A broken firing pin in a Walther PPK firing the gun on racking the slide to load on a check firing. Things happen you don't expect.... so try anything like that in a safe environment.... because you really don't know just what will happen.....................
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