jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,606
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Post by jeffh on Oct 27, 2021 18:57:16 GMT -5
CONTROL........................ Measured against a clock & deadline, safety looks slow. Against tragedy, safety measures efficient. David Bradshaw
It seems so common today - pervasive - that organizations seek out people for leadership positions who think willing, wishing and wanting long enough, hard enough, loud enough and obnoxiously enough gets things done, without the basest of knowledge of ANY process or any respect for the value of expertise, especially as safety is concerned.
Gamblers.
Not necessarily good gamblers, but reckless, willfully ignorant and unthinking gamblers, gambling other people's money, lives, reputations - taking the long-shot for the bigger payoff. And people's fortunes and lives lie in these gamblers' hands. It feels like we've developed a taste for tyrants in leadership, are willing to gamble, but not willing to accept the consequences of losing. The work ethic is dead. Personal responsibility is dead. Saving, paying things off is dead. The value of experience and skill is dead. Everything is in the hands of "idea-people," who think they were born more enlightened and more important than anyone else, especially anyone born before them - and their "ideas," wills, wishes, wants shall all come to be realized because they are THEIR ideas, so they are inherently GOOD ideas. Too willfully stupid to acknowledge, let alone respect the notion that there are people with experience who must be listened to, who must be allowed to exercise their experience-based authority to keep people from being hurt, dying or losing their "fortunes."
Sorry.
I work in a discipline where it is a constant battle to keep people like this from trying an end-run on the code for the sake of fifty cents. I've spent a career wondering every day if I'd be going home without a job that night because I refused to ignore or circumvent safety. The convincing point was always the same "go ahead, do it your way, but someone may get hurt or killed and THEN you'll lose even more money when the civil suits start, but you're not implicating me in it." Always document it in an email to all the "honchos," find an empty box and wait. Never filled that box for that reason, but still wonder why it always had to be a fight.
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jeffh
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Posts: 1,606
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Post by jeffh on Oct 27, 2021 19:00:05 GMT -5
There's many times I am in a vehicle with other people. Quite often they tell me it's clear to pull onto the highway. But, can't do it without looking for myself. My dad ALWAYS did that to me.
Same answer every time - "love ya, dad, but don't trust ya THAT much. MOVE YOUR HEAD!"
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Post by flyingzebra on Oct 27, 2021 19:13:31 GMT -5
Always document it in an email to all the "honchos" In this case the honcho was also the trigger man.
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jeffh
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Posts: 1,606
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Post by jeffh on Oct 27, 2021 19:58:36 GMT -5
Always document it in an email to all the "honchos" In this case the honcho was also the trigger man.
That e-mail always included the particular "honcho" who proposed to take the uncalculated risks with other peoples' well-being.
In other words, if it doesn't smell right, someone has to speak up. I don't know that anyone did or didn't.
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Post by bradshaw on Oct 27, 2021 20:52:38 GMT -5
Some years back, a stunt person did a bungie jump from high up in the Super Dome. Probably a half-time show. The rigger who played out the rubber band played out too much. The stunt person hammered the deck on her jump. In that case, the stunt woman may have failed to measure height of jump and length of bungie cord. Somebay crapped the sack, a fatality resulting.
Hollywood might not like my training, which begins----and ends----with the first rule of firearms handling, MUZZLE CONTROL. Invited to participate in Hunter Safety course, I brought firearms of every action type. A clique of three or four old geezers ran this show. One was a chief of police, active or retired I wasn’t sure. The others were old hunters. I sensed none had been hard core competitive marksman. They had all kinds of props, posters, and flip boards full of do and don’t do. Teaching technique consisted of passive listening with no participation. Come my turn, each one of the fifty kids learned muzzle control hands-on, then handled every action type. The old geezers were in such sock, I basically took over the show. In an effort to inculcate muzzle control, the kids practiced my fall. In turn, each had to fall with a .22 rifle in is hands----without the muzzle ever pointing at anyone. “You’re go into the woods, you’re going to fall. The rifle is in your hands, control the muzzle.”
It was a long night. A class which started at 6pm and should have ended at 7 or 7:30, concluded at 10pm. I don’t care whether the kids made it to school the next day or not.
At one of my own Hunter Firearms classes, a mother proudly told me she didn’t allow her boy to “play with cap guns.”
Mam, I don’t care whether your child plays guns. It’s fine by me. The playing stops before he picks up a REAL FIREARM. Do not equate a toy with a firearm, it implies a toy gun is dangerous. Don’t lie. When he picks up a firearm, he’ll handle it like a toy. People get killed by farm machinery every year, chopped up with chain saws every year. Farm machinery, a chainsaw, a firearm commands respect. The moment you pick up a firearm, you pick up an adult responsibility.
Under normal circumstances, it is rude to hand a person a loaded firearm, most emphatically one you haven’t checked out. You always check a firearm to see if it is loaded. You don’t check a firearm to see if it is unloaded.
The little I know of it, Hollywood doesn’t work that way. An actor is handed a gun and does the scene. No check to see if it is loaded. You or I get handed a gun, we check it out. We’d probably be thrown off the set.
Then, there’s the matter of “Cold gun!” In my lingo, a cold gun is unloaded, with action open. If it has a removable magazine, the magazine is out.
A glossary for Hollywood HOT GUN----loaded with live ammo. COLD GUN----loaded with blanks. ICE COLD GUN----unloaded.
PHONY GUN----propane simulator. DIGITAL GUN----computer animation, no gun at all.
Gun people are hardly innocent. A trick shot----a very good shot----picks me for a demonstration, hands me a revolver.. It angered him that I immediately check the revolver----to see if it is loaded. David Bradshaw
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Post by zac0419 on Oct 30, 2021 13:10:30 GMT -5
Some actors are under the impression the “armorer” takes over adult responsibility because of how their whole systems set up. I don’t for one second believe if I pay a Chef to supervise cutting vegetables that my finger could never end up in the carrots.
That said, I don’t follow his logic but I hope he can find peace through real reflection of what transpired. It’s an awful thing to take another life especially when you know the family. Maybe instead of the unions insisting on multiple armorers they insist on actors actually learning the tools of their trade. Love him or hate him Keanu Reeves put in the hours at Teran and could smoke most of us in 3 gun. Visit YouTube if you don’t believe me.
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,105
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Post by edk on Oct 31, 2021 7:05:26 GMT -5
The news is quoting Mr Baldwin stating this is a "one in a trillion" event. Have there even been a million rounds expended since the origin of filmmaking? How many more films could be made before expending a billion? It would seem no policy/safety changes are necessary with plenty of safety margin!
The news is also reporting this happened on the set a week or so earlier - oops, scratch that idea!
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Post by leadhound on Oct 31, 2021 10:27:42 GMT -5
The news is quoting Mr Baldwin stating this is a "one in a trillion" event. Have there even been a million rounds expended since the origin of filmmaking? How many more films could be made before expending a billion? It would seem no policy/safety changes are necessary with plenty of safety margin! The news is also reporting this happened on the set a week or so earlier - oops, scratch that idea! All I heard was "brass and primer shortage"?
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Post by bula on Oct 31, 2021 11:01:26 GMT -5
In regards to the loved ones of the person lost, killed, what might constitute justice in your opinions ? In Court, what will be the filed charge(s) ? All speculation , yes.
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Post by squawberryman on Dec 3, 2021 12:09:07 GMT -5
"I didn't touch the trigger."
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Post by bushog on Dec 3, 2021 12:15:46 GMT -5
He thumbed the hammer
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Post by bigbrowndog on Dec 3, 2021 13:40:27 GMT -5
I watched the interview, he made several matter of fact statements that were not true. It was also obvious he was justifying his lack of concern over not personally checking the gun. “I’ve been told to not mess with the gun, in the past”. He was definitely deflecting blame and responsibility for his lack of action.
Trapr
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Post by x101airborne on Dec 3, 2021 22:39:53 GMT -5
Some actors are under the impression the “armorer” takes over adult responsibility because of how their whole systems set up. I don’t for one second believe if I pay a Chef to supervise cutting vegetables that my finger could never end up in the carrots. That said, I don’t follow his logic but I hope he can find peace through real reflection of what transpired. It’s an awful thing to take another life especially when you know the family. Maybe instead of the unions insisting on multiple armorers they insist on actors actually learning the tools of their trade. Love him or hate him Keanu Reeves put in the hours at Teran and could smoke most of us in 3 gun. Visit YouTube if you don’t believe me. Darned right. They did the training with LIVE ammunition; meaning Keanu and Halley Berry (now that is one tail whoopin I dont mind taking.). Hours and hours of Youtube action of them training AND messing it up! Not all of it posted was of them running the course clean! They trained and trained to get it right and it shows! If one of them asked me tomorrow "Hey, want to run some 3 gun?" my answer "Well hell yes!, but we aint betting no money on it."
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Post by rkcohen on Dec 6, 2021 10:07:37 GMT -5
so, he didn't touch the trigger.
maybe he thumbed the hammer over a live round?
two people were shot - did he shoot both with one round?
or did he "not touch" the trigger twice?
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Post by potatojudge on Dec 6, 2021 10:47:19 GMT -5
so, he didn't touch the trigger. maybe he thumbed the hammer over a live round? two people were shot - did he shoot both with one round? or did he "not touch" the trigger twice? Yes, bullet went through one, killing her, and into the shoulder of the survivor. Hammer mounted firing pin and possible action modification could allow for discharge without trigger pull, such as a slip of the hammer, broken or worn parts, or a gun set up for fanning without the need for pulling the trigger. Who knows with Hollywood props? Old armories full of guns of all designs modified over the years for specific purposes, handled roughly and for show rather than marksmanship. Working the action would tell immediately if that was a possibility. I'd imagine that's already been considered in the investigation.
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