RELOADING THE 38-40 IN A CLEMENTS N FRAME CONVERSION

[45MAN]

<a href="http://IMG_1214">link</a>

I AM NOT DOING THIS AS AN EXPERT, JUST SHARING MY LIMITED, BUT GROWING EXPERIENCE WITH THE 38-40. 

SEVERAL YEARS AGO I ACQUIRED A 1920's COLT SAA IN 38-40 AND COMMENCED TO RELOAD FOR IT USING WINCHESTER BRASS AND OTBC 180gr CAST RNFP BULLETS. BIG PIA AS THE RESIZING WOULD LEAVE THE NECK TOO LOOSE TO HOLD BULLETS UNTIL YOU COULD CRIMP THEM. THE ANSWER, A SCOVILL 38-40 RESIZER DIE, RCBS PRODUCT # 57081, IT DOES THE JOB AND PROBLEM SOLVED. THE FS ON THE SAA WAS TOO HIGH AND I JUST LOST INTEREST IN THE REVOLVER AND THE 38-40. THEN A FEW YEARS LATER, OFF OF GUN BROKER, I GOT A CLEMENTS 38-40 CONVERSION ON A S&W MODEL 28 AND REVISITED THE 38-40. EXTRACTION WAS DIFFICULT, I GOT BUSY WITH OTHER REVOLVER PROJECTS AND LOST INTEREST IN THE N FRAME 38-40.

RECENTLY I GOT MOTIVATED TO REVISIT THE N FRAME 38-40. I POLISHED THE CYLINDER CHAMBERS AND SHOT SOME ULTRAMAX 180gr LEAD BULLET AMMO. EXTRACTION SEEMED TO HAVE IMPROVED WITH THE POLISHING. I HAD A RS ISSUE AND HAD TO ORDER A SMALL PART BUT KNOW I THINK I AM READY TO GET GOING ON THIS PROJECT.

THE DONOR GUN WAS A MODEL 28 THAT WAS APPARRENTLY COSMETICALLY CHALLENGED BEFOR CLEMENTS GOT IT SO IT HAS A DULLER THAN DULL FINISH AND SOME OF THE WRITING IS BLURRED. NOTWITHSTANDING THE COSMETIC ISSUES, THIS IS 1 FINE REVOLVER WITH A GREAT ACTION AND WONDERFUL SINGLE ACTION TRUGGER PULL. I ADDED SOME ELK STAG GRIPS "FOR LOOKS".

FOR RELOADING I SIZE WITH THE SCOVILL DIE, SEAT WITH A REDDING MICROMETER DIE, AND CRIMP WITH A LEE COLLET DIE ON A DILLON, USING THE 45 COLT SHELL PLATE AND PINS. ONLY "GLITCH" IS ALIGNING THE CASE WITH THE POWDER THRU/FLARE DIE SO AS TO AVOID FOLDING PART OF THE NECK.

ON PAGES 29-30 OF SCOVILL's BOOK "LOADING AND SHOOTING THE PEACEMAKER" HE NOTES THAT WITH 180gr, 200gr AND 250gr BULLETS RESPECTIVELY YOU CAN USE THE SAME POWDER CHARGES IN 38-40, 44-40 AND 45 COLT (IN COLT SAA's). FOR EXAMPLE YOU CAN USE UP TO 10grs OF UNIQUE IN THE 38-40 WITH 180gr BULLETS. I FIGURE THE SMITH IS AT LEAST AS STRONG AS THE COLT SAA SO TODAY I LOADED A FEW ROUNDS USING WW BRASS, WLP PRIMERS, 9.5grs OF UNIQUE AND THE OTBC 180gr RNFP BULLET. HOPE TO GET TO THE RANGE IN THE MORNING TO SHOOT THE N FRAME 38-40 SOME MORE.

[45MAN]

GOT TO MY RANGE ON THE RIO GRANDE THIS MORNING. HOT, HUMID, WINDY AND A MAKESHIFT TARGET BLOWING BACK AND FORTH IN THE WIND, NOT IDEAL TESTING CONDITIONS. I DID MANAGE TO GET THE CLEMENTS' 38-40 ZERO'ed IN OFF A REST AT 25 YARDS. THE ULTRAMAX FACTORY LOAD EXTRACTED EASILY. THE LOAD WITH 9.5grs OF UNIQUE REQUIRED A TAP ON THE END OF THE EXTRACTOR ROD WITH A HARD OBJECT (I USED A PLASTIC MTM CARTRIDGE BOX) TO BREAK THE CARTRIDGES FREE. WHEN I GOT HOME I CLEANED THE CHAMBERS AND DID SOME MORE POLISHING WITH SOME STEEL WOOL ROUND AROUND A BORE BRUSH AND SPUN BY A DRILL.

I ONLY HAD 16 RELOADS OF THE 9.5grs UNIQUE LOAD AND BY THE TIME I GOT ZERO'ed IN I WAS OUT OF AMMO, BUT THE LOAD LOOKED VERY PROMISING, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE FLAPPING TARGET.

[Encore64]

I'd think that gun would easily handle 25k loads in the 38-40. Loaded to that pressure with 2400 Powder would be formidable.

Wall thickness should be greater than that of a M25 45 ACP.

Very interesting project and great gun...

[45MAN]

Aug 8, 2021 14:09:25 GMT -5 Encore64 said:

I'd think that gun would easily handle 25k loads in the 38-40. Loaded to that pressure with 2400 Powder would be formidable.

Wall thickness should be greater than that of a M25 45 ACP.

Very interesting project and great gun...

I AGREE, PRETTY SURE I CAN LOAD IT HOTTER, JUST WORKING MY WAY UP AS I TRY TO ELIMINATE THE EXTRACTION ISSUE FIRST. BASICALLY RIGHT NOW I AM PROBABLY IN 40 S&W BALLISTICS TERRITORY AND THIS GUN DESERVES BETTER THAN THAT.

[Encore64]

I'd guestimate a GT 200 grn could easily do 1250-1300 fps from that beauty.

[squawberryman]

Tell us about the gun please sir. We can see the front, rear sights, grips, logo. What's the finish? What all was done? Darn neat piece

[45MAN]

I DID NOT COMMISSION THIS GUN AND I BOUGHT IT OFF GUN BROKER FROM SOMEONE THAT HAD USED IT WITH SOME RELOADS USING STAR LINE CASES AND UNIQUE POWDER (JUDGING FROM SOME AMMO THE SELLER SENT ME). AS I SAID IN MY ORIGINAL POST THE MODEL 28 (AN S27XXXX SRIAL #) APPEARRED TO HAVE FINISH ISSUES BEFORE THE CONVERSION. IT HAS A VERY DULL BLACK/BLUE RE-FINISH, TARGET TRIGGER AND TARGET HAMMER, A CUSTOM FS, REGULAR S&W RS, AND A GREAT ACTION. THE BARREL LOOKS TO BE A RE-BORED 6" MODEL 27 OR 28 BARREL. THE MARKINGS ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE BARREL WERE REMOVED BUT ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE RECEIVER CLEMENTS LETTERED 38 WCF AND ADDED HIS MAKERS MARK.

I HAD A 5 INCH S&W HEAVY DUTY 38 THAT I ALWAYS WANTED TO SEND TO BOWEN TO CONVERT TO 38-40 BUT BEFORE I GOT AROUND TO IT BOWEN QUUT DOING THE S&W CONVERSIONS, SO ONCE I ACQUIRED THIS CLEMENTS REVOLVER I MOVED THE HD 38 DOWN THE ROAD.

[45MAN]

PLANNING ON GOING TO MY RANGE ON THE RIO GRANDE THIS A.M. AND SHOOTING SOME OF THE 9.5grs OF UNIQUE LOADS IN WINCHESTER AND IN STAR LINE CASES. WILL REPORT BACK.

[flyingzebra]

Those grip stocks look fantastic

[crash87]

Your going to like that cartridge you have there, highly underrated. I to have a 38-40, a Old Model Ruger conversion, received it back a year ago August. I to had the same problem as you did with the neck tension, I also have Scovill's book including his first one. He addresses that issue with the neck sizing, I took a different route and bought a lee sizer die and had .020 taken off the bottom of the die. It worked out to perfection to seat my LBT 200 WFN bullets inside the neck. Before, I had one drive band and the grease groove in the neck. My extreme spreads went down, and uniformity of my loads came in check. BTW, I had gotten extreme spreads in and around 100fps, at times, with different powders, even more. I also will add I use a Lee factory crimp die. I have Starline and Winchester cases, and if you do you, will see the Factory Winchester has the longer neck where Starline does not.(Dave also states that in his writings) I use the Starline for my 180 gr Mountain molds lfn equivalent bullet and of course keep them segregated. Powder is usually Hodgdon Universal, my substitute for Unique. I also use that because of Scovill's first book, and I have not been disappointed with this choice of powder, with this and other cartridges that one could use, Unique in.
One point Id like to make fwiw, I've seen many times in forums about this cartridge and I know its here to, not trying to make controversy and hi jack your thread and to each his own, but, This cartridge is at its best with loads that it was meant to shoot. With todays metallurgy, technology, and knowledge we can make this cartridge a "magnum", but why? A 200 gr bullet at 1000fps, is a joy to shoot, and Very lethal when it hits. With these revolvers we can give them, a little more, and have that extra level of safety for the firearm and shooter. To say its pleasant to shoot, and hit with, is an understatement.
When I want a 40 caliber bullet to do more than the loads in my 38/40, I set it down and pull out its twin, but in in factory form, and 7/8" shorter, chambering? What else, the 41 magnum.
When I had this built, I thought and looked, long and hard at the 41 Special. I knew the 38WCF had its quirks but also a lot of history. Nostalgia won out,
Enjoy your 28 in 38-40!
Crash87

[45MAN]

GREAT POST crash87, THANKS

WENT TO THE RANGE ON THE RIO GRANDE THIS MORNING AS PLANNED. THE SAME LOAD IN STAR LINE CASE HAD MORE KICK AND BETTER ACCURACY THAN IN THE WINCHESTER CASES, AND DID NOT HAVE THE EXTRACTION ISSUES OF THE WINCHESTER CASES. I HAVE OVER 200 UNFIRED WINCHESTER CASES I WILL MAKE ANY TAKERS A GOOD DEAL ON IF ANY OF YOU ARE INTERESTED. FOR THIS CLEMENTS CONVERSION I AM ORDERING SOME STAR LINE CASES.

THE GUN SHOOTS LOW WITH THE RS UP AS MUCH AS I CARE TO GO WITH IT (AND IT ALREADY APPEARS TO HAVE A TALL RS BLADE). I HAVE OVER 600 OF THE OTBC 180gr RNFP BULLETS TO USE UP BEFORE I TRY SOME 200gr BULLETS, WHICH SHOULD SHOOT HIGHER. I LOADED UP SOME LOADS USING A HEALTHY DOSE OF TRAIL BOSS AND FEDERAL 155M PRIMERS IN STARLINE CASES, HOPING THIS MAY RAISE THE POI.

[Encore64]

I also use only Starline Brass. While I load mine +P, I can see both sides.

Using Lee Dies, bullets have to be .400"+ to get good neck tension in my handloads. I've measured jacketed 10mm bullets as small as .397". They just won't work for me.

I've found by loading to more modern ballistics, the ES drops greatly. I've followed the lead set by John Taffin and Lee Martin on this one. I've found their information spot on. Also, find 2400 to be "THE" powder for my guns. Usually, revolvers all have their own personality.

There has always been different thoughts on loading. This isn't likely to change. But, there is a difference in "what pressure/ballistics a cartridge originally produced" and "what a cartridge was originally designed for."

All of the handloaders from Phil Sharpe on have done exceptional work with the powders and components they had. Now, we have to do the same thing.

Dave Scovill did great work with The Peacemakers. But, this cartridge is a different animal in various guns.

I don't find any of this controversial, just different thoughts.

Was glad to see John Taffin include Brian Pearce's Three Levels of 44 Special Loads in his new book. Being able to adapt highlights the difference between a Handloader and a Reloader...

[45MAN]

WAS GOOGLING FOR 200gr CAST BULLETS I MIGHT COULD USE IN THE 38-40. FOR THE 38-40 ALL I FOUND WERE THE 180gr RNFP BB STYLE WITH A CRIMP GROOVE. ALL THE OTHER .400 - .402 BULLETS WERE FOR 10MM's WITH NO CRIMP GROOVE. ANY SUGGESTIONS?

SOME OF THE 10MM 200gr BULLETS LOOKED NICE, WHERE WOULD I CRIMP? SLIGHT CRIMP ON THE BULLET's SHANK, JUST OVER WHERE THE ORGIVE STARTS, OR WHAT? ANY SUGGESTIONS ON 10MM 200gr BULLETS (WHOSE)?

[Encore64]

Aug 15, 2021 7:24:59 GMT -5 45MAN said:

WAS GOOGLING FOR 200gr CAST BULLETS I MIGHT COULD USE IN THE 38-40. FOR THE 38-40 ALL I FOUND WERE THE 180gr RNFP BB STYLE WITH A CRIMP GROOVE. ALL THE OTHER .400 - .402 BULLETS WERE FOR 10MM's WITH NO CRIMP GROOVE. ANY SUGGESTIONS?

SOME OF THE 10MM 200gr BULLETS LOOKED NICE, WHERE WOULD I CRIMP? SLIGHT CRIMP ON THE BULLET's SHANK, JUST OVER WHERE THE ORGIVE STARTS, OR WHAT? ANY SUGGESTIONS ON 10MM 200gr BULLETS (WHOSE)?

With the Lee Collet Crimp Die no cannelure is required to crimp.

My favorite hunting load for deer and smaller is the 200 grn GT HP Bullet over 2400 for a velocity of 1320 fps. Muzzle Energy matches the EK 44 Special Loads and trajectory is better.

[45MAN]

WELL, WENT TO THE RANGE ON THE RIO GRANDE THIS A.M. TO TRY A LOAD OF 7.8grs OF TRAIL BOSS, STARLINE CASES, FED 155M PRIMERS AND THE OTBC 180gr RNFP. LOAD KICKED LESS THAN THE 9.5grs OF UNIQUE LOAD, SHOT HIGHER THAN THE UNIQUE LOAD BUT NOT ENUFF TO MATTER, AND HAD PISS POOR ACCURACY. WITH THE PRESENT FS ON THIS CLEMENTS CONVERSION 180gr BULLETS ARE NOT GOING TO WORK. I DO NOT WANT TO ALTER THE FS UNTIL I SEE WHAT WILL HAPPEN WITH 200gr BULLETS. WILL ORDER STARLINE CASES AND SOME 200gr 10MM BULLETS AND THEN REVISIT THIS NEAT REVOLVER.