Bullet Integrity

[sixshot]

starmetal47, where are you coming up with this stuff, we've got rifles in the mix, jacketed bullets, Razor Dobbs, semi auto's & the 460, plus cast HP's don't penetrate! What does any of this have to do with my original write up?
I stated that by slowing down just a tick from well over 1300 fps by 1/2 gr that I increased from 5 water jugs to 6, that's pretty good penetration for a HP going that fast, no? Now to flesh & bone. In the last 6-7 years I've guessing that I've taken around 15 deer & antelope with cast HP's something that I didn't do for about 45 years of taking big game. Out of all of those animals I've recovered ONE bullet, ONE! And that bullet went almost lengthways through a muley buck at 64 yds. The bullet was a 245 gr penta HP with only 10 grs of Unique in my old model 44 flat top.
The bullet broke the right front shoulder, went through one lung, the intestines & was lodged up against the left hip bone. It weighed about 175 grs as I recall after all that penetration & shattering the right shoulder bone almost straight on & yes I have the bullet, I've shown it & the buck several times.
It would be very helpful if you would show some of your kills with SIX GUNS & CAST BULLETS if you don't mind, I'm sure you have them, thanks. I don't want to hear about someone else's experience's, I want to hear about yours! And my buddy 45 Man has probably taken more big game that just about anyone I know with six guns & done it in several countries, he's a full time six gunner.......

Dick

[Odin]

Dick, I for one am finding this discussion quite fascinating. Been thinking about your experience compared to the results Glenn got a few years ago with the 477-640-HP on a Bison. As I recall, he was running them about 150fps slower with a 70/30 mix and the recovered bullet was an astonishingly picture perfect mushroom. Am curious that you don't seem concerned about the nose shearing off the 45 slugs. As for myself, I probably wouldn't worry if it were for whitetail, but Africa...

[bula]

Well, Sixshot mentions a 305gr LBT....not using the HP for everything ? My guess. 

[sixshot]

bula nailed it, I will have a 306 gr LBT solid up front for the first round & a 282 gr HP in chamber #2. That's why I've been experimenting with penetration and also point of impact of the 2 different bullets. They are right together out to 50 yds.
The thing you want to develop is your penetration with your HP load to make sure it does both things it's designed to do, expand & penetrate. You have to be careful you don't overdrive a HP! I've done the experimenting, 6 gallon jugs & weight retention just by backing down 1/2 gr on the horsepower. Now the bullet is acting like a Nolser Partition, it is totally demolishing the first 2 jugs & then penetrating the next 4, just what I want. The explosion is pretty impressive!
Haven't chronographed since the 1/2 gr back down but I'm guessing around 1250 fps. That's great for a 282 gr bullet, it will work fine. I've killed some very large elk with less.
I now have my other new gun in hand & will test drive it today but I do think I'll either use just a 250 gr LBT solid or perhaps make a 250 HP with a smaller pin for smaller African animals. The water jugs are waiting. This gun runs pretty fast, and it's a looker!!!!!!

As for Glenn's Bison, that was as perfect of a mushroom as you'll ever see because he didn't overdrive it. I think it was almost 1" in diameter & weighed about 383 grs!! Original weight was 387 grs, that's running it the perfect speed, not over running it. Plus, when Glenn designed that bullet he did it so that when the HP sheared off you still had a 300 gr solid driving straight ahead & penetrating, just like a Nosler Partition.

Dick

[bula]

I've video of hitting and destroying 3, 4gal cat litter buckets, the 4th pushed off the board, with one of your 385gr PC'd HP's in .476". Velo in the 11's. Easy to believe it capable of passing thru moose/buff. 

[dougader]

Jul 3, 2021 14:13:24 GMT -5 bula said:

I've video of hitting and destroying 3, 4gal cat litter buckets, the 4th pushed off the board, with one of your 385gr PC'd HP's in .476". Velo in the 11's. Easy to believe it capable of passing thru moose/buff. 

Steve's bullet pic:

[bula]

The bullet's of Sixshots casting. Thank You Doug.

[dougader]

That .477 hp is a monster. I'd have no qualms using it for anything in the USA except maybe grizzly bear.

[messybear]

Very interesting thread!
Dick- I find the same as you in that a little added velocity doesn’t do anything at times except limit penetration.
I ran the same bullets at 1200 and about 1300 and got less penetration in lengthways shots in deer. And the higher velocity one didn’t hit any bone like the other. Both did lots of tissue damage. These were penta pointed “soft cast” of 50/50 alloy. They hold together good with minimal weight loss. I see good expansion and weight retention if all the things you talk about are balanced.
Also what is the story on that last photo of expanded slug?
Thanks

[bula]

Sixshot did the casting. They are here to feed the 2 BSBH 480's. I try other things, then go back to them, repeat. I put a piece of plank across the top of my burn barrel and lined up 4, big yellow cat litter buckets. 4-5 gallons per ? The first 3 buckets were destroyed, water and pieces all over the patio. The 4th bucket got pushed back and off the end of the plank and survived it's fall to the ground. The mushroomed bullet found on the patio to the right of the burn barrel. Think I was using the 4 5/8" Bisley 480. I don't have a way to send the video and retain quality. 

[KRal]

Here’s one of Dick’s .410 210gr hollow points fired from a S&W M57 with 6” barrel pushed by 8.5gr of Unique.




This was retrieved from a quartering to shot on a whitetail at 25 yards. Entry was on the onside shoulder and bullet was underneath the hide about 6” behind offside shoulder.

[dougader]

It looks like Dick's work balancing expansion to penetration worked pretty well in Africa.

[wgg]

Mr. Thompson has shared his knowledge with us and given us proof of what has worked for him. He has been there and got the t-shirt.

[sixshot]

One thing you will notice on this African hunt is that I switched bullets in the first 2 chambers because I was having such good luck with the 282 gr HP in my bisley, even at pretty high velocity. I had the 282 gr HP in the first chamber & backed it up with the 308 gr LBT solid in chamber #2 in case I had to do a second shot at a less than desirable shot at a moving/running animal. That's exactly what happened on my Nyala although it didn't run, it just turned.
The first shot was a frontal shot & I'm sure it was fatal but in that heavy brush, (they live in that stuff) you just don't take chances. He was just stumbling & turning around so when he got quartering to us I ran the 308 gr. solid through him & that finished it very quickly.
Also on the Cape Buffalo, where I was very lucky to have the 325 gr LBT solid in my pocket I slipped it in chamber #1 in place of the 282 gr HP so that I now had 2 solids back to back. Remember, I didn't plan on shooting a Cape Buffalo. I took the high shoulder shot with a complete pass through with the 325 gr bullet & then the raking shot with the 308 gr water quenched LBT bullet that surprised me. It went between 2 ribs, took out the vitals & lodged up against the right from shoulder. This isn't the part that surprised me, what did was the weight retention, it started out at 308 grs & it still weighed 308 grs & you can see the bullet is clean, there's no flesh or blood or anything attached to it after the skinners gave it back to me. It had just flattened out a bit, fluke? I don't know.
You would have to ask Mark Hampton or Rey Garza or some of the others that have much more African experience than I do. Larry's bullets weighed 306 grs with his alloy from my mold.
Here's my velocities with the 282 gr. HP. 1332 fps, 1335 fps, 1350 fps & 1335 fps. With the 308 gr bullet they were, 1350fps, 1352fps, 1385fps & 1361fps. This is with 2 different powders & an 8.5" barrels with a tight cylinder gap.

Dick

[45MAN]

DICK, YOU SHUD PATENT THE ALLOY FOR THAT 308gr BULLET.