jack
.30 Stingray
Posts: 193
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Post by jack on Jul 1, 2021 10:20:19 GMT -5
For 30 years or so, I happily plugged along with heat treated wheel weights, or some version of 92-6-2. I relied on meplats and reasonable velocities to get the job done. I generally stayed under 1500 fps especially on very large critters/big bones because that seemed to be the threshold where shedding significant weight could begin(My loads my experiences YMMV) I was quite happy with any number of 41, 44, and 45 slugs at anywhere from 1000 to 1400 for all my uses. Then about 10 yeas ago I tried my first hollow point molds and the quest for different alloys began! Then a couple years later a customer introduced my to PC and things changed even more.
I'll admit that I chased my tail for a long time! The problem was I was constantly looking for a "one size fits all" approach to the bullets/alloys. Sort of what I had done with the solids. Something I could make a big pile of and cast a ton of slugs, etc. Finally my slow wit gave way and i realized that I would not take this approach with most rifle rounds -I would approach each round/application individually and select the correct bullet for the game animal, weapon, conditions involved. So why would I not do the same with a handgun load. From said point, while a little more work, I have been much happier with my results. And I think that Dick has done a great job of trying to teach us very much this point! At least that is what I take away from his advice on testing testing testing.
All that said, I am still not convinced that I am enamored with the HP experience. Yes, I love them for vermin in my 32 and 357 guns. But over-all, I just never had an issue with a solid and a good meplat and reasonable speed in a large cal handgun. I always saw good damage, great penetration, and decent blood trails (If the critters covered any appreciable distance - which was largely rare) I have taken pronghorn, assorted deer, elk, moose, black bear, boar, nilgai, and bison. I have necropsied them all, and have been happy with the results of solids. My experience is not as vast as some, far more than others, but it is broad enough to know what gives me confidence when aligning the sights - and in think it is confidence in your ability to shoot the weapon in hand, and confidence in said weapons ability to do the deal, that leads to success, at least for me. I guess I am just not there yet with the HP designs. BUT, I am plugging away and still testing testing testing, and god willing i will continue to do so till I wake up on the wrong side of the dirt.
The point of this windy diatribe is to thank you to you all who provide your insight and experience and alloys and techniques. They help me immeasurably in my search for perfection in my loads, as I am sure they do for so many here.
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mod70
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 95
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Post by mod70 on Jul 1, 2021 11:17:24 GMT -5
I am not a castor, although I would like to give it a try, but it has not worked out. I do shoot cast bullets, however I have never shot one at game. I also have helped a friend cast 45 wadcutters for us to shoot in bullseye. However saying that, and reading a book or two and reading discussions such as this. It seems to me that there are definitely different ways to skin the cat. Some have had good success one way, and others another. I don't see a whole lot of difference if you think thru what each one has experienced themselves. It is very clear to me that a skinned cat is a skinned cat, no matter how you got there. I have always relied on placing the bullet where it needs to be for a quick kill. Which has worked out for my limited hunting, compared to many here.
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Post by ddixie884 on Jul 1, 2021 13:51:39 GMT -5
Cool, Thanx...........
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Post by 45MAN on Jul 1, 2021 21:27:39 GMT -5
Dick maybe Bob will chime in here, but you need to talk with him about high velocity and alloy. He and I have done things that most peopel will refuse to believe. Bob taught me a lot!!!! IN A RIFLE OR A REVOLVER? I RARELY SHOOT RIFLES, AND NEVER WITH CAST BULLETS. MY CAST BULLETS INTEREST IS MOSTLY INVOLVING PERFORMANCE IN REVOLVERS.
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Post by sixshot on Jul 1, 2021 22:03:59 GMT -5
Yes, again this is about revolvers! But also again I've spent a lot of time trying to convince guys that if you use big, heavy bullets there's no need to beat yourself up with speed (recoil) if you are getting exits every time at 900-1100 fps!!! What's the purpose, at least that's my take on it, everyone is free to do as they choose. I'm just saying that of all the animals from Idaho, Montana, Utah, Texas, Wyoming, Alaska, Arizona & Africa I've probably only recovered maybe 4 bullets. And that's well over 100 animals from moose on down. Not telling anyone what to do but if you're getting exits at those speeds why do you need more speed (recoil.) We know that recoil goes up about 3 to 1 over velocity so that's why I say go for accuracy & as much speed as you can tolerate but many work themselves into a flinch from trying to run with the big boys, is it worth it?? Again, just my opinion but "extra" velocity is over rated! Prove me wrong.
Dick
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Post by bearskinner on Jul 1, 2021 23:19:08 GMT -5
Absolutely agree with that Dick. I usually try for break down shots, shoulder shots, if I can’t make a positive head shot. When you drop them and get a pass thru at moderate speed, no use getting beat up trying to get more speed.
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Post by rjm52 on Jul 2, 2021 6:59:18 GMT -5
...yes, great information...
In doing some testing with .41 caliber cast HP bullets:
MP 165 HP MP 175 PentaPoint MP 212 Keith HP MP 217 Keith PentaPoint MP 265 TruShot Clone HP
Unlike conventional jacketed HPs that expand rapidly, shed little weight and only penetrate 2-3 jugs of water, the cast HPs shed their nose in the first 1-3 jugs and the shank just keeps on truckin'.
To me that is the best of both worlds...great initial shock and deep penetration of a softpoint or solid.
One thought however..as to "impact" velocity vs. muzzle velocity. Have you run the numbers to see what the impact velocity is going to be at 60-100 yards...
Great write-up Dick...and have a great Safari!!
Bob
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Post by 45MAN on Jul 2, 2021 7:53:37 GMT -5
Absolutely agree with that Dick. I usually try for break down shots, shoulder shots, if I can’t make a positive head shot. When you drop them and get a pass thru at moderate speed, no use getting beat up trying to get more speed. BEARSKINNER: I AM A GREAT BELIEVER IN, PROPONENT OF AND USER OF SHOULDER SHOTS ON ANIMALS WITH REVOLVERS. NON EXPANDING REVOLVER BULLETS NEED MASS (BONE AND MUSCLE) TO IMPART THEIR "SHOCK"/"WHACK" ON, SHOOT A LITTLE FURTHER BACK AND YOU MAY HAVE A TRACKING/FINISHING JOB ON YOUR HANDS.
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Post by starmetal47 on Jul 2, 2021 10:36:37 GMT -5
rjm52 the way you described what cast hollow points do is exactly what Nosler planned many decades ago with his partition bullets.
Talk here about bone crushing/breaking shoulder shots, well you don't ever do that with cast hollow points. Some ask what role does velocity play? I believe it's called hydraulic shock. 45man even spoke abour "whack". I'm not advocating super hi velocities with handguns and just what calibers get that? First that comes to my mine is the 460 S&W.
So what are you gentleman's take on Razor Dobbs taking two Cape Buffalo's with a 10mm 1911? One had a bullet pass through on a broad side shot and no he does shoot for shoulder.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Jul 2, 2021 10:40:35 GMT -5
Every animal on the planet has been taken with a 22LR, and it’s a lead bullet as well. So nothing is impossible.
Trapr
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Post by starmetal47 on Jul 2, 2021 12:05:17 GMT -5
Gee bigbrowndog what does one say to that except that's it's also been done with bows & arrow and spears?
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Post by webber on Jul 2, 2021 12:08:29 GMT -5
Interesting
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Post by 45MAN on Jul 2, 2021 13:54:52 GMT -5
IN A SAFARI IN 1996 I WAS USING A 10 INCH FA MODEL 83, WITH THE 45 COLT CYLINDER, WITH LOADS OF 325gr CAST GC'ed WFN, WITH A MV OF 1,625fps. ON DAMN NEAR EVERY 3 SHOT GROUP AT 100 METERS I WOULD HAVE 2 VERY CLOSE TOGETHER AND ALWAYS ONE FLYER. SO ON THAT SAFARI I HAD AN UNEXPLAINED WAYWARD HIT ON A ZEBRA (MAYBE THE FLYER?) AND A DEAD CENTER SHOULDER SHOT ON A BIG BULL ELAND AT UNDER 100 YARDS, THE BULLET WENT IN AND OUT AND THE ELAND RAN SOME BUT NOT MUCH. I QUIT ON THE WFN's BECAUSE OF THE FLYERS AND GOT CORBON TO MAKE ME THEIR 320 PENETRATORS WITH A FLAT POINT AND A 305gr WEIGHT. LATER, MY LIFE EXPERIENCE, TOLD ME THAT I WAS LUCKY THAT THE 325gr CAST WFN, AT A MV OF 1,625fps, MADE IT ALL THE WAY THRU THAT ELAND WITHOUT BREAKING UP, DEVIATING, etc. NOW I TRY AND KEEP MY CAST BULLET LOADS AT UNDER 1,300fps.
MY OPINIONS ARE BASED ON A LOT OF FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE AND OBSERVATION. I HAVE AN OPEN MIND AND AM WILLING TO LISTEN TO OTHERS' EXPERIENCES, AND MAYBE EVEN THOUGHTS, ON CAST BULLETS IN REVOLVERS ON ANY MANNER OF GAME BUT I KNOW WHAT I KNOW AND AM COMFORTABLE WITH MY OPINIONS.
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Post by starmetal47 on Jul 2, 2021 15:23:38 GMT -5
45man I'm not getting on you. You're right about a lot of things. It's interesting on the WFN's because that's exacting what those hunter use in the pumped up 45-70 Marlins. About the Marlin I'm surprise that more of them haven't blown up because there is hardy any metal in the web between the threaded barrel hole and the threated magazine hole. I heard Marlin changed it from Acme threads to V thread to give it more meat. But anyways they use those hard cast WFN's.
You certainly proved that the 45 Colt case isn't all that weak, it's the cylinder that holds it and how tight the tolerances are and your revolver has all the importants to make that work. That's impressive what you got out of the 45 Colt case/cartridge.
I guess we can say that an arrows has lots of penetration because it's heavy and slow. Speed that arrow up to high velocity and the story is different.
What do you think of the 460 S&W? Do you know there is 460 S&W (rimless) in an AR10 carbine?
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Post by bigbrowndog on Jul 2, 2021 15:42:49 GMT -5
Comparing a hunting arrow to a bullet is apples and oranges, the arrow is designed to cut and penetrate thus the importance of sharp broadheads. Yes arrows and spears have killed everything as well as a 22LR, what that has to do with this topic escapes me. My comment about it was simply in reply to the 10mm being used on Cape Buffalo, proving that placement of bullet has a lot to do with effectiveness on animals, even in the face of relative inadequate perceived penetration. A “fast” sharp arrow will provide more penetration than a “slow” one of equal weight and construction, the same as a bullet. It was my impression that this topic was about differing construction and equal performance, which I find very interesting reading
As for blowing up Marlin 336’s, I guess I should retire my 50alaskan because there must not be any metal there at all. There is another topic on this forum that describes the importance of steel composition over simple thickness, perhaps the strength of the steel is considered when the owners of Marlin 4570’s load ammo, or the owners of the converted to larger calibers load for their guns.
Trapr
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