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Post by boolitdesigner on Jun 29, 2021 14:51:03 GMT -5
Also, there's only so much you can do hardness wise with a HP bullet & expect it to perform to your expectations, make it too hard & it won't do anything but penetrate, make it too soft & it will over expand & give you very little penetration. Dick There are alloys out there where this is not true. A certain alloy air cooled gives 8 BHN.... water dropped it gives 19 BHN after two weeks of ageing. Both react the same in the amount of expansion and nose sloughing off of the bullet. The 8 BHN going 1,000 fps does the same as the water dropped 19 BHN at 1,300 fps. Rifle bullets with a tiny HP act the same at 2,400 fps with the 19 BHN treatment. All this is tested data over the last 15 years in actual animals. It is all in the alloy choice......................... specifically the amount of antimony and tin ratios.
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Post by sixshot on Jun 29, 2021 22:58:24 GMT -5
Well then, I'll shut up until I learn more! But Bob, don't stop talking, tell us more.
Dick
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Post by 45MAN on Jun 30, 2021 6:20:32 GMT -5
MESSR. SIXSHOT: PLEASE DON'T SHUT UP, YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH CAST BULLET PERFORMANCE ON GAME ANIMALS IS ALWAYS WELCOME.
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Post by sixshot on Jun 30, 2021 9:50:23 GMT -5
Bob, if an 8 BHN alloy, which is barely above pure lead (5 BHN) will get the job done why would you even need 1300 fps & all the added recoil? Also I think most of us would enjoy seeing all of your kills over the last 15 years, you don't show them. Thanks,
Dick
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jun 30, 2021 10:21:35 GMT -5
Well then, I'll shut up until I learn more! But Bob, don't stop talking, tell us more. No Dick, please do not do that. Keep on as my info is for deer size game..... you shoot bigger stuff and I really want some input on how soft alloys do on them.Bob, if an 8 BHN alloy, which is barely above pure lead (5 BHN) will get the job done why would you even need 1300 fps & all the added recoil? Also I think most of us would enjoy seeing all of your kills over the last 15 years, you don't show them. Thanks, Dick I've shot that alloy at 8 BHN and 19 BHN out of the 308 at 2,400 fps. No leading and basically the same performance. Catching a 2,400 fps bullet at 300 yards is a bit difficult, but I managed in a very dry powdered clay medium. The bullets didn't distort, but the only difference was the amount of nose engraving..... the 8 BHN was fully engraved to the nose ogive and the 19 BHN was engraved 1/3 up the nose from the front band. This was a drastic alloy test and it worked. As to your question, I want the alloy to be very soft, but able to be upgraded in hardness by heat treating. That allows you to use the same alloy for everything regardless of cartridge. I like enough horsepower to kill efficiently and you don't get that without some velocity as you know unless you shoot a heavier bullet.... thus added recoil. My main thrust was to use the old lesser horsepower cartridges to shoot deer among other things, thus my experimentation with HP configuration. That alloy is the same I have been saying all along: 1/2 wheel weights and 1/2 lead. The whole trick if there is one is that you can achieve hardness by either putting greater percentages of antimony, tin and maybe copper to harden it or by heat treating an alloy with minimal antimony and lead. Those two options produce very different characteristics and properties in the bullet. You have a lot more possibilities using the second option. What I shoot for is an alloy with about 2 to 2.5 percent antimony and about a 1/4 percent tin. As for the kills, I don't have a cell phone or a digital camera...... I'm a bit stubborn as to technology......................
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Post by 45MAN on Jun 30, 2021 10:35:49 GMT -5
INTERESTING STUFF. A COMMON MIX-UP I SEE IN CAST BULLET THREADS, AND IN THIS THREAD, IS THAT GUYS MIX UP REVOLVER AND SP AND/OR RIFLE INFO RE CAST BULLETS, AND/OR MIX UP BIG GAME PERFORMANCE WITH WHITETAIL PERFORMANCE. SIXSHOT STARTED OUT TALKING ABOUT CAST BULLETS FOR A REVOLVER SAFARI AND NOW .....
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jun 30, 2021 14:02:01 GMT -5
INTERESTING STUFF. A COMMON MIX-UP I SEE IN CAST BULLET THREADS, AND IN THIS THREAD, IS THAT GUYS MIX UP REVOLVER AND SP AND/OR RIFLE INFO RE CAST BULLETS, AND/OR MIX UP BIG GAME PERFORMANCE WITH WHITETAIL PERFORMANCE. SIXSHOT STARTED OUT TALKING ABOUT CAST BULLETS FOR A REVOLVER SAFARI AND NOW ..... Big game performance versus whitetail............... What would you say to putting a 300 gr. cup HP bullet thru 4 feet of 280 lb. deer lengthwise and autopsing it to find out if it has what it takes to take big game. It exited also. Only one of those, but it seems to work fine. We don't have scrawny deer here.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Jun 30, 2021 17:18:43 GMT -5
I think I get Reys point, though,........even a 280 pound pig is a different animal than a 280 pound deer. Different musculature density, thicker tougher bone structure. Weight is not the deciding feature, much the same way one lead bullet differs from another of the same weight by BHN. Perhaps we should place a BHN number to our game as well??? Good Info here guys, it makes for interesting reading. Trapr
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jun 30, 2021 17:58:37 GMT -5
Weight is not the deciding feature, much the same way one lead bullet differs from another of the same weight by BHN. Perhaps we should place a BHN number to our game as well??? Trapr I've found that BHN is not a controlling factor, regardless of alloy. The add more antimony, tin to get harder bullets crowd gets completely different results from the have just enough antimony, tin to heat treat it to harder crowd as far as expansion goes. I've also driven those bullets to obscene velocities out of rifles to see if I could disintegrate them in various test mediums and they stay together except for the HP nose sloughing off. They also gave deep penetration. I don't know what they do on big thick bones or dense heavy muscle though................... That's one thing Dick can tell us about.
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Post by starmetal47 on Jun 30, 2021 17:58:51 GMT -5
That is true about pigs IF you are going to shoot any place on their body. Most guys I know that hunt them shoot them in the head even with very small calibers. There's a recent thread on this forum about a man that can't kill a big pig he's been hunting and shot it a time or two. Read it.
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Post by sixshot on Jun 30, 2021 19:28:22 GMT -5
Bob, it does get confusing when guys start talking about rifle bullets & rifle velocity. My original question was, do you think I improved the integrity of my load by slowing it down just a bit. I wanted to prove a point that many people miss because they are almost always looking for more velocity. I think just about any alloy will kill deer if bullet placement is correct & reasonable velocity is used. You said you've shot almost lengthways through a 280 deer, I've shot almost lengthways through a very large cow elk, and I've shown the photo! Just behind the front shoulder with a exit just in front of the left hip using a 230 gr keith 41 magnum bullet. I've always shown my alloys, they don't always stay the same because I hunt different game but I show what I shoot or I don't tell the story. And I've always shared what the alloy has been. Maybe your alloys are a secret blend, but you can share some photo's, always makes it more interesting, especially some of those big, midwestern deer! I thought the forums were about sharing stories & information. I certainly don't doubt your bullet casting knowledge & I don't think anyone else does either. There's more than one way to cast a good bullet.
Dick
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Post by starmetal47 on Jun 30, 2021 20:06:06 GMT -5
Dick, Bob's alloy is no secret. It's just like he said: 50% wheel weight mixed with 50% lead or just say 50/50. As he said you can shoot it just air cooled, or you can water drop it, and of course you can heat treat it. Depends on your use or it. I've been using it since Bob told me of it. You can presume the lead is 100% lead. The wheel weight, well they have changed over the years. The one ones has more antimony, arsenic, and tin in them. I use mostly water dropped and rarely ever heat treated.
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Post by 45MAN on Jun 30, 2021 21:30:11 GMT -5
WHEN IT COMES TO BULLET PERFORMANCE I LIKE TO KNOW WEIGHT, DIAMETER, TYPE OF BULLET, MV, WHAT IT WAS SHOT OUT OF AND HOW FAR FROM THE MUZZLE WAS THE INPACT, IN ADDITION TO HOW IT PERFORMED.
7/1/21 addition: ALSO, IF THE BULLET IS RECOVERED, I LIKE TO KNOW ITS RETAINED WEIGHT.
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Post by sixshot on Jul 1, 2021 9:10:51 GMT -5
starmetal47, you are correct & I do the same thing although I'm kind of new to it, I only started in the 60's. But as I've stated before what works on deer at a certain velocity isn't necessarily ideal for elk or bigger game so you change up your alloy to match your target. Mostly I use 70/30 with a very small amount of linotype thrown in (1/4 lb) per pot. And as velocity goes up your alloy goes with it, at least for me. I've always told shooters to use the softest alloy they can get by with & still get good accuracy, and I like 50/50 for the 800-900 fps range. But now that most of us are powder coating that has changed everything because you can reach velocities with softer bullets that weren't possible before.
Dick
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Post by starmetal47 on Jul 1, 2021 9:58:08 GMT -5
Dick maybe Bob will chime in here, but you need to talk with him about high velocity and alloy. He and I have done things that most peopel will refuse to believe. Bob taught me a lot!!!!
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