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Post by sixshot on Jun 26, 2021 21:54:36 GMT -5
Recently I have been testing big, heavy 45 bullets in my long barrel 45 bisley for my upcoming trip to Africa. Last week I ran the 282 gr HP over 1330 fps & shot through 5 water jugs & nicked the sixth one. I noticed laying on the table several pieces of the bullet that had came apart in the journey, not a big deal if I've went through 5 water jugs, right? That's why we experiment. Many times as shooters we make the often fatal mistake of looking for more speed as the answer, but sometimes that can create more of a problem than a fix. Here's why I say that. Last week I was using a heavy charge of 4227 along with a magnum primer to hit this 1330 fps mark & get the 5 water jugs. OK, not bad, probably a very good load, it shot well on paper, I showed the group & it was very good. But I also had 5 rounds in my ammo box that were .5 gr lower than what I had shot the group with & the 5 water jugs. Today that lighter load, but only slightly lighter went through 6 jugs & shot a tighter group. Not a lot tighter, but getting that one extra bottle of penetration is what got my attention, I wanted that! I'll reload again tomorrow & chronograph but it won't matter, it won't be much less than 1300 fps & I'll be shooting a better hunting load. I recovered a bullet in the 6th jug that weighed 167 grs after all that punishment, that's pretty darn good for a HP! Experimenting is how we get the best load we can.....isn't it? Dick
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weiler
.30 Stingray
Posts: 423
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Post by weiler on Jun 26, 2021 22:22:36 GMT -5
Dick, is that the MP 45-270? what’s your alloy mix for this load? have had such wonderful results with that bullet w/ medium hollow point in my Bisley
Chris
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Post by 45MAN on Jun 27, 2021 6:06:24 GMT -5
FOR .452 AND LARGER CAST "SOLID" BULLETS, FOR "BULLET INTEGRITY" I AM LOOKING FOR MINIMAL DEFORMATION, NO BREAK-UP, MINIMAL FRAGMENTATION, AND MINIMAL WEIGHT LOSS. FOR THESE CAST "SOLID" BULLETS, MY "RULE", USUALLY ADHERRED TO, IS TO KEEP MY CAST BULLET LOADS TO 1,300fps AND UNDER OUT OF THE GUN I WILL USDE THEM IN.
I USED A HP CAST BULLET THAT I GOT FROM SIXSHOT, I THINK IT MAY BE THE SAME ONE HE POSTED ABOUT ABOVE, IN A 45 COLT CONTENDER, ON A BIG DOE LAST DEER SEASON. MV WAS IN THE MID 1,300's OUT OF THE 10 INCH CONTENDER, BULLET ENTERED RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE REAR RIGHT LEG AND WAS RECOVERED IN THE FRONT LEFT SHOULDER, AND PRETTY MUCH LOOKED LIKE/WEIGHED LIKE SIXSHOT's RECOVERED WATER JUG BULLET. AS A "BULLET INTEGRITY" FREAK I WAS KINDA "FREAKED OUT" BY A 100gr WEIGHT LOSS, BUT I GUESS WHEN YOU USE A CAST HP YOU SHOULD EXPECT BULLET DERORMATION, e.g. A MUSHROOM, AND WEIGHT LOSS, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DAMN DEAR SHOOT LENGTHWISE THRU A DEER.
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Post by blackmamba on Jun 27, 2021 10:07:54 GMT -5
Sounds like good performance to me, similar to a Nosler Partition. The front half of the bullet blows shrapnel throughout the soft tissues for greater blood loss, and the shank continues to penetrate deeply. And everything I've read about penetration with cast bullets says to keep striking velocities below 1250 fps for minimum deformation and maximum penetration.
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Post by bearskinner on Jun 27, 2021 11:04:43 GMT -5
FOR .452 AND LARGER CAST "SOLID" BULLETS, FOR "BULLET INTEGRITY" I AM LOOKING FOR MINIMAL DEFORMATION, NO BREAK-UP, MINIMAL FRAGMENTATION, AND MINIMAL WEIGHT LOSS. FOR THESE CAST "SOLID" BULLETS, MY "RULE", USUALLY ADHERRED TO, IS TO KEEP MY CAST BULLET LOADS TO 1,300fps AND UNDER OUT OF THE GUN I’ve studied a lot of cast 300 grain .45 bullets, usually at 1100-1250, de preditating hogs. Most of the time, complete pass thrus, ( head and heart shots) but on a shoulder shot, longways, the bullets may stop in the rear of the hog. I’ve noticed at 1250’ish speed, the tissue damage appeared to be much more effective than a faster Bullet. I mostly use large meplat bullets75-85 percent, as most shots are really close with open sighted revolvers. These big flat nose bullets at certain speeds will create a “grape jelly type condition” to tissue and muscle. It’s as if there’s a magic speed fir different bullets, where they just work better, and do more damage. Nothing scientific here, just years of observations to bullet performance.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 12:01:30 GMT -5
I'm always glad to study posts like this one. Can really learn a lot in a short time thanks to you guys who post about your decades of experience.
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Post by dougader on Jun 27, 2021 14:33:57 GMT -5
That's pretty good performance, Dick, especially when backed up by the similar experience of 45MAN.
You probably stated in the earlier thread, but what will you be hunting with the hp loads?
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jun 27, 2021 14:56:01 GMT -5
Want more weight left when using HP cast bullets? ............... Then reduce the depth of the HP. MP HP molds are set up to do just that.
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Post by 45MAN on Jun 27, 2021 16:19:13 GMT -5
Want more weight left when using HP cast bullets? ............... The reduce the depth of the HP. MP HP molds are set up to do just that. I WAS WONDERING ABOUT THAT VERY THING.
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jun 27, 2021 21:50:01 GMT -5
Want more weight left when using HP cast bullets? ............... The reduce the depth of the HP. MP HP molds are set up to do just that. I WAS WONDERING ABOUT THAT VERY THING. Most of my later designs have a Cup, Penta and Large HP. If you notice, they are evenly spaced as to depth of HP. This allows you to pick alloy and velocity to do what the bullet needs to do in an animal.... provided you pick the right alloy and hardness for your intended striking velocity. Rifle bullet HP's act somewhat differently.
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Post by sixshot on Jun 28, 2021 11:39:40 GMT -5
While I could have been satisfied with the 5 water jugs I wanted to see what the slight reduction in velocity would give me & it gave me one more water jug & no fracturing of the bullet. That was the nugget I was looking for, that little bit of insurance. On big animals I would rather have the added penetration because the angle could change & I'll give up velocity anytime just knowing I can take a quartering shot with confidence. Bearskinner's experiences have been the same as mine, there's that little sweet spot you look for & test for that give you the best results. Also what Bob said is true, you can change pins & you can also adjust you alloy to get the results you want, you just have to do a little testing to get there. I think Weller ask me my alloy, I'm using about 80/20 for these loads with about 1/4 lb of linotype added to pick up some additional tin. Also my bullets are powder coated which, in a way changes everything compared to a conventional cast bullet. Also my 306 gr LBT solids are water quenched after coming out of the toaster oven.
Dick
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Post by bula on Jun 28, 2021 11:51:58 GMT -5
Water quenched after the the toaster oven ? Ooh, sumpin' new. Take note folks. I've a thought, and not having stood over as many gut piles as many on this forum have, not judging, just thinking... Jug or bucket or baggie shooting, like chrono'ing is done CLOSE. Is this a factor when we are shooting the critter at 50-100yds ? Again, the proof is in the gut pile, and so many here, more experienced than me. I LOVE to shoot buckets, jugs and baggies too, just wonder, what am I learning, per reality. POV and perspective with real experience is where the knowledge comes from. Thanks Sixshot
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jun 28, 2021 15:02:39 GMT -5
Water quenched after the the toaster oven ? Ooh, sumpin' new. Not really, LBT noted various hardness within a sliding scale of quench temperatures many years ago in his little books. It changes somewhat with alloy also and you can do the same as I know several people who do so also. Take note folks. I've a thought, and not having stood over as many gut piles as many on this forum have, not judging, just thinking... Jug or bucket or baggie shooting, like chrono'ing is done CLOSE. Dependent on just how well you can hit at longer ranges, the jug alignment is somewhat useful as are autopsies of a deer shot at close to longer (over 100 yards) ranges. Is this a factor when we are shooting the critter at 50-100yds ? Again, the proof is in the gut pile, and so many here, more experienced than me. I LOVE to shoot buckets, jugs and baggies too, just wonder, what am I learning, per reality. In reality you can use a natural medium to catch and check wound channel characteristics at ranges not practical to hunt at (I hunt and don't snipe). At my location, I use glacial till (which is a very wet damp mottled clay laid down by the glaciers). It is about twice as dense as a deer as it stops a bullet in half the length I've found an identical bullet to travel in a deer. Yes, I shoot deer not only to kill them in place, but to test bullet performance, travel length and to see just what happened along it's travel length. It takes a lot of deer to determine things like that. POV and perspective with real experience is where the knowledge comes from. Thanks Sixshot
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Post by sixshot on Jun 29, 2021 12:34:59 GMT -5
Sounds like a very good test medium Bob! Bula, instead of trying to hit those water jugs at long range, here's the answer. Just figure your velocity at the range you'll be shooting, say 100 yds & your remaining velocity is 900 fps & then make up some loads at 900 fps & shoot at close range & you'll get the same results, Easy, peasy! Also, there's only so much you can do hardness wise with a HP bullet & expect it to perform to your expectations, make it too hard & it won't do anything but penetrate, make it too soft & it will over expand & give you very little penetration. It's a testing game & water isn't the best for testing but it's repeatable. If you have access to a lot of newspapers you can put them in water softner sacks, soak them over night if them are packed TIGHT & then stack them end to end & shoot them, it takes a bunch but it's a good test.
Dick
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Post by Markbo on Jun 29, 2021 13:22:08 GMT -5
As usual with Sixshot, great stuff here!
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