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Post by bradshaw on May 16, 2021 6:06:22 GMT -5
Not to hijack Dougader's thread about his Ruger American in 358 Winchester, I started a new thread. I have two rifles, a 338 Federal with a 20 inch barrel and a 358 Winchester with a 20 inch barrel. I had both of these made up on Yugo Mauser actions, both drilled and tapped for one piece Leupold bases. These were built by one of the last great "Old School" Mauser gunsmiths out of PA. I am having issue with finding the appropriate jacketed bullets for hunting that promise full reliable expansion at distance on game. I dont shoot game over 300 yards at all, but when I use the 338 Federal or the 358 Winchester I limit my shots to about 150 yards or less. Intended game is Whitetail and hogs. I have not shot a deer with either yet, but performance on hogs at distance has been very spotty. Allow me to break this into two sections for more clarity. 338 Federal. I dont really think anyone thought this cartridge through very well. A call to Hornady was placed and the person on the phone said every one of Hornady's bullets are designed for an impact velocity over 1900 fps. for full expansion. (This was a couple years ago when bullets were readily available.) Now, if I remember correctly, Hornady offers a 150 grain 8mm bullet for the 8x57; I wish they could make a 160 grain 338 bullet but new dies and time in the line probably rule out this possibility. Accuracy of the cartridge and rifle are top notch but I have never recovered any bullet tried out of this cartridge and there is very little proof of expansion inside the animal and exit holes are only as big as a #2 pencil. This to me indicates little to no expansion. Im not trying this on deer till I see better results on hogs. 358 Winchester Again, accuracy is not the issue but the only bullet I have had any good results with has been the 180 grain XTP hollow point. Problem is... it drops like a rock after roughly 125 yards and knowing trajectory is paramount. I gave up and went to strictly 220 grain cast bullets from a NOE mold. Im doing "ok" with the cast bullets, but I would really like to find a jacketed alternative when they become available again. So yall weigh in here and see if we cant hash this out. ***** Trey.... I had to back up the train and re-read your inquiry. It is modest and real. If you’re swamped in a rabbit factory of hogs, might as well conduct bullets tests on a carcass----at anticipated distances. David Bradshaw
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Post by x101airborne on May 16, 2021 7:31:46 GMT -5
I do that with any load I am wanting to use on deer. Found out once that my 25-06 bullets were shredding themselves apart on impact. That would have been bad on anything but a lung shot on a deer. And I tested Tinker's 38 Special loads on trapped hogs for him. That was good.
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Post by RDW on May 16, 2021 12:26:06 GMT -5
Trey.... I had to back up the train and re-read your inquiry. It is modest and real. If you’re swamped in a rabbit factory of hogs, might as well conduct bullets tests on a carcass----at anticipated distances. David Bradshaw Trey.... I had to back up the train and re-read your inquiry. It is modest and real. If you’re swamped in a rabbit factory of hogs, might as well conduct bullets tests on a carcass----at anticipated distances. David Bradshaw If you’re swamped in a rabbit factory of hogs, Hahahahahahahaha. Super Dave, you have no idea, its ridiculous to say the least. I had a chat with a close friend who is on the board for the Houston live stock show and rodeo about our problem here in Texas with wild piggies. He is a Retired Veterinarian. He told me that the normal Cycle of a female pig to go into oestrus is roughly a 180 to 220 days after birth. But this new wild strain of crossbred monsters were always around boars and that the were now seeing them as young as 120 days now. So he put it into perspective for us by stating that mama pig has an average of 12 piglets on January the 1st of 2000. 9 of them are female. They are all 9 knocked up at the first of may! In the mean time so is mama pig. So we now have 10 piggies pregnant for an average of a little less than 4 months. So on september the first we have 10 times 12 new piggies plus the 10 females. 130!!!! Lets just say because of the human waste and excellent food sources available in south Texas that all 130 survive. Guess what, 90 of those were females and yes, it starts all over again on Jan 1st 2001. The original 10 are going to give us another round on may 1st along with the new 90. do the math. Another 130 from the first group and yep you guessed it 90 times 12. Holy guacamole. 130 plus 1080 new rootin tootin Saint augustine munching, Water pipe up rooting, deer feeder desroying, field of crops slayin, out of this world breeding PIGS by the end of august! Thats one thousand , two hundred and ten pigs of which if we start the cycle all over again. 1210, of which 972 are new females. Giving birth to an average of 12 all over again. By the end of 2002 we have over ten thousand of the dam things. David they breed so fast in such vast numbers it is ridiculous. Now take into account that not all will be as it seems but the capability is there and we have a real problem here man. We hunt them from helicopters when we can. They tore up my dads place in Beeville so bad it looked like it was used for bombing practice. R
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Post by leftysixgun on May 16, 2021 12:42:18 GMT -5
Sounds like I (and my daughter) NEED to come to Texas for some shoosting time!!! Any takers to be a host? Im sure I can come up with some “ballistic experiments”
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Post by bradshaw on May 16, 2021 12:42:37 GMT -5
Ronnie.... Holy Hollywood Belt Feed Sixguns! In other words, Mama Pig is a 9-Pig Dillon Press, cranking out 9 Swine each pull of the handle? David Bradshaw
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Post by leftysixgun on May 16, 2021 12:56:51 GMT -5
Ronnie.... Holy Hollywood Belt Feed Sixguns! In other words, Mama Pig is a 9-Pig Dillon Press, cranking out 9 Swine each pull of the handle? David Bradshaw Hahahahaha, put into a reloaders perspective......good job Bradshaw? From a manufacturing point of view, its called production.....lol Damn Pigs! They are in the top five of my list of what I enjoy to shoot/hunt! My daughter says a hog is at the top of her list as the next game animal to hunt/shoot.
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Post by pacecars on May 16, 2021 13:43:38 GMT -5
My deer hunting turns into pig or coyote hunting at the first sight of either one here in Florida. Night time pig jihads are entertaining also
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Post by pacecars on May 16, 2021 13:57:10 GMT -5
Back to the original post I have used the 200 gr FTX which is designed for .338 Marlin velocities in a .338 Federal out of a 12 inch Ported MGM barreled Encore pistol and shot deer at 125 yds and a hair over 250 yds and it expanded and passed through both. I have also shot pigs at 25 - 200 yds with the same combo and it expanded and made a mess in snide but I don’t remember it passing through any of the pigs except a 50 lb one at about 75 yards. The other pigs were all over 175 lbs and there were no pass throughs. Not a large sample size but it worked for me. I also used the factory Fusion loads and I think it was the 185 gr version and they worked in a couple of pigs but never shot a deer with them. It is a fun round in a pistol and the velocity is lower so bullet choice is critical
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tj3006
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,965
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Post by tj3006 on May 16, 2021 16:38:28 GMT -5
I like the concept of both of these rounds. But I foresaw the issue you are facing. I had a savage 99 in ,358 years ago. After awhile I realized that the advantages it offered at the ranges you mentioned, are really of little value to me. Any animal I shot with a 200 grain 358 at 100 yards should flop well but the same is true for a 165 or 180 grain .308. So that is what I stayed with. Cause after around 200 yards the .308 was likely to do a better job than the .358. 35 caliber bullets, are interesting. what cartridge did the designers have in mind when designing the particular bullet ? Hard to say. a ,338 bullet was likely designed for the .338 win mag. Therefore designed for high impact velocities. Thus the problem of bullet performance when fired at 4 or 500 feet slower than the bullet was designed for. I am not terribly familiar with the Yugo Mausers , But I suspect you would have much better luck if you had the chambers reamed to improved 06 chamberings. especially with the.338, However I am only assuming the action is long enough and that your barrels are long enough to utilize the greater powder capacity. Staying with the .308 case length I would agree with the idea of using light for caliber boat tails to promote bullet expansion at lower velocity . I thing the .358 would be great for shooting from a tree stand at very short ranges. 225 grain bullets that start out a 2500 fps, should do well on any animal in NA at 100 yards or less. I have a hankering to try a .338 O6 on game. But frankly I am getting old enough that load development and such things for new (to me) cartridges seems like it might be time better spent with the rounds I love already ...tj
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Post by bigbrowndog on May 16, 2021 17:00:22 GMT -5
To me the 358 has always been a 200 and under round. In that range it is awesome for game 200 pounds and heavier to 800-1000 pounds. If I need the same performance at longer distances then I go with .338-06 and larger. The 338 Fed. to me has always been a caliber looking for a good use, limited by effective bullets, and not providing enough oomph or range to outdo the .308.
Trapr
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Post by x101airborne on May 16, 2021 18:29:14 GMT -5
Trey.... I had to back up the train and re-read your inquiry. It is modest and real. If you’re swamped in a rabbit factory of hogs, might as well conduct bullets tests on a carcass----at anticipated distances. David Bradshaw If you’re swamped in a rabbit factory of hogs, Hahahahahahahaha. Super Dave, you have no idea, its ridiculous to say the least. I had a chat with a close friend who is on the board for the Houston live stock show and rodeo about our problem here in Texas with wild piggies. He is a Retired Veterinarian. He told me that the normal Cycle of a female pig to go into oestrus is roughly a 180 to 220 days after birth. But this new wild strain of crossbred monsters were always around boars and that the were now seeing them as young as 120 days now. So he put it into perspective for us by stating that mama pig has an average of 12 piglets on January the 1st of 2000. 9 of them are female. They are all 9 knocked up at the first of may! In the mean time so is mama pig. So we now have 10 piggies pregnant for an average of a little less than 4 months. So on september the first we have 10 times 12 new piggies plus the 10 females. 130!!!! Lets just say because of the human waste and excellent food sources available in south Texas that all 130 survive. Guess what, 90 of those were females and yes, it starts all over again on Jan 1st 2001. The original 10 are going to give us another round on may 1st along with the new 90. do the math. Another 130 from the first group and yep you guessed it 90 times 12. Holy guacamole. 130 plus 1080 new rootin tootin Saint augustine munching, Water pipe up rooting, deer feeder desroying, field of crops slayin, out of this world breeding PIGS by the end of august! Thats one thousand , two hundred and ten pigs of which if we start the cycle all over again. 1210, of which 972 are new females. Giving birth to an average of 12 all over again. By the end of 2002 we have over ten thousand of the dam things. David they breed so fast in such vast numbers it is ridiculous. Now take into account that not all will be as it seems but the capability is there and we have a real problem here man. We hunt them from helicopters when we can. They tore up my dads place in Beeville so bad it looked like it was used for bombing practice. R The numbers Ronnie is posting are absolutely true given "if" all survive. Competing boars will eat the young to make the sow come into heat faster. Combined with other predators, well, you get the picture. Problem with hogs is.... you might get one two or slightly more out of a pack. Then the sows get educated. No more coming out of the brush before dark, smelling wind, etc.. I and others have seen packs of 50 and even more at one time, but our kill ratios are low relevant to the population increase. They will move 5 to 10 miles at a time (over a few days of course) and you have done nothing but make these educated hogs someone else's problem. Box trapping is the main solution, but if you have never seen a Whitetail accidentally caught in a box trap, let me tell you it is tragic. We have tried open top round traps and our efforts were rewarded with few in the trap and the posts and panels bent over where the other hogs climbed out. Guess our chances of EVER getting those hogs back in the trap... zero and fading fast. I used to guide for wild hog hunts. Worked my tail off to put people on hogs only to have them expect to ride around on JD Gators all the time and expect a hog to walk out, or stop to smoke every 5 minutes, or say "You expect me to get more than 5 feet away from my beer cooler?", "Im not walking out at 0200." or even better, they shoot every skunk, coon, possum and squirrel with their 30-06, then have the balls to say "I dont know why I am paying for a 4 day hunt when I didn't even see a hog.". My reply.. "Well no sh++ you didn't see a hog! You went through a case of beer a day and shot 20 rounds of ammo out of the stand I put you in BEFORE it was even time to watch for hogs!". Done with guiding for the general public. D-u-n-n- done. Want to hunt hogs? Buy 400 acres and do it on your own property; not mine.
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Post by bigbrowndog on May 16, 2021 20:39:37 GMT -5
That last paragraph has a lot of wisdom and experience in it. When I take hunters, I place a two drink minimum on alcohol per day, if they get drunk they’re done and kicked off the property, the entire party. What gets me most is getting someone inside 100 yards of a pig and them needing 3-5 minutes to get a shot off, because they need their shooting sticks for a 50 yard shot. I’ve taken to trying to only take people I know can shoot, and don’t over do the alcohol, so basically friends and acquaintances.
Trapr
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Post by x101airborne on May 16, 2021 22:41:22 GMT -5
That last paragraph has a lot of wisdom and experience in it. When I take hunters, I place a two drink minimum on alcohol per day, if they get drunk they’re done and kicked off the property, the entire party. What gets me most is getting someone inside 100 yards of a pig and them needing 3-5 minutes to get a shot off, because they need their shooting sticks for a 50 yard shot. I’ve taken to trying to only take people I know can shoot, and don’t over do the alcohol, so basically friends and acquaintances. Trapr I as well Sir. I dont mind pulling a cork... or two... or three... But AFTER the hunt is done and the weapons are stowed safely.
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Post by squigz on May 17, 2021 8:41:33 GMT -5
Gosh, I don't know if there's much more that I can really add to this that hasn't been said, But I'll just throw in what I've learned over the years owning both as well, since I was the one that hi-jacked Doug's thread with my father's 358 win.
338 Fed - I have one built off a Remington 700 action with a 23" barrel.
It started life shooting Hornady 225gr SST's and I wasn't impressed with their performance on whitetails, you're seeing the same thing with pencil holes; I hit bone and caused a little more damage didn't have any issues recovering deer but immediately switched. From there I went to a 200gr Nosler Accubond loaded with w748 and Fed210M, this load is giving me a touch over 2500 fps, I've shot out to 200 yards with it, without an issue. It's had wonderful performance on deer and it was even loaned once to harvest a 200lbs black bear.
I've thought about dropping the grain weight of the bullet to the 180gr Accubonds to get more speed and more expansion, but it works at 200; so I left it where it was.
The one I did want to try, Barnes either did or still does make a 160gr TTSX bullet if you're really looking to increase the speed potential of the cartridge. I just don't have enough hunting seasons/game to harvest in the North east, so generally once I find something that works, I try to stock and stick to it.
Another thought is I wish Nosler Accubond Longrange bullets were slightly lighter in this caliber, 265gr seems too much for the 338Fed, but it would be nice since they have a much lower expansion velocity(1300 FPS) than Ballistic Tips/Accubonds/Partitions (1800 FPS)
358 Win - Got this for my father for his 66th birthday, Ruger American "predator" with 20" barrel.
At this point it's only killed some whitetails with Speer 180gr Hot-Cor bullets. They worked well, but I felt that they over expanded at the velocities we were shooting, I forget exactly off hand where we were with them, but I believe it was around 2600 and they were almost exploding completely on impact, most didn't leave an exit and the entrance wounds were signification. I suggested debris or something on the deer prior to being shot, but they were shot in the complete open with zero chance of that, so we were perplexed.
Recently we've switched over to 200gr Accubonds, these are not in Nosler Load data, so we had to adjust and work on our own load. They shoot great out of the gun, but unsure how they'll handle on deer, that'll happen this winter.
Bullet selection for this was difficult for the exact reason of expansion, I'm hoping the Accubonds pull ahead and perform well.
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Post by white eagle on May 17, 2021 9:28:48 GMT -5
In my 358 I use round nosed bullets by Hornady shot a bull elk with the 250 gr spire point Hornady bullet worked just fine but for whitetail I use the round nose design
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