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Post by x101airborne on May 15, 2021 9:11:15 GMT -5
Not to hijack Dougader's thread about his Ruger American in 358 Winchester, I started a new thread. I have two rifles, a 338 Federal with a 20 inch barrel and a 358 Winchester with a 20 inch barrel. I had both of these made up on Yugo Mauser actions, both drilled and tapped for one piece Leupold bases. These were built by one of the last great "Old School" Mauser gunsmiths out of PA.
I am having issue with finding the appropriate jacketed bullets for hunting that promise full reliable expansion at distance on game. I dont shoot game over 300 yards at all, but when I use the 338 Federal or the 358 Winchester I limit my shots to about 150 yards or less. Intended game is Whitetail and hogs. I have not shot a deer with either yet, but performance on hogs at distance has been very spotty. Allow me to break this into two sections for more clarity.
338 Federal. I dont really think anyone thought this cartridge through very well. A call to Hornady was placed and the person on the phone said every one of Hornady's bullets are designed for an impact velocity over 1900 fps. for full expansion. (This was a couple years ago when bullets were readily available.) Now, if I remember correctly, Hornady offers a 150 grain 8mm bullet for the 8x57; I wish they could make a 160 grain 338 bullet but new dies and time in the line probably rule out this possibility. Accuracy of the cartridge and rifle are top notch but I have never recovered any bullet tried out of this cartridge and there is very little proof of expansion inside the animal and exit holes are only as big as a #2 pencil. This to me indicates little to no expansion. Im not trying this on deer till I see better results on hogs.
358 Winchester Again, accuracy is not the issue but the only bullet I have had any good results with has been the 180 grain XTP hollow point. Problem is... it drops like a rock after roughly 125 yards and knowing trajectory is paramount. I gave up and went to strictly 220 grain cast bullets from a NOE mold. Im doing "ok" with the cast bullets, but I would really like to find a jacketed alternative when they become available again.
So yall weigh in here and see if we cant hash this out.
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Post by bigbrowndog on May 15, 2021 10:02:28 GMT -5
On the 338Fed. I’d say try some of the old ballistic tips from Nosler, or see if you can find any of the older Hornady bullets meant for the 338 Marlin. I’ve never really understood the logic on this round, and I really like the .338 bore size. Another you might try is a 210gr Nosler partition, the soft front end has always given me great expansion and the rear penetrates well. However I’ve never used it in anything smaller than a 338-06.
On the .358 give the Hornady 200FTX a try, I’ve used it in a 358 and it performs well, another would be 180speer FN, or 220FN I’ve used both in 35 Rem with excellent results out beyond 150.
Trapr
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Post by x101airborne on May 15, 2021 10:11:41 GMT -5
Thank you Sir!
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Post by markhampton on May 15, 2021 11:01:46 GMT -5
Regarding the 338 Fed. I have taken a few animals with this round from a 15 inch Encore pistol barrel. Most have been larger critters than whitetail including Shiras moose plus seven head of African plains game with a huge Livingstone eland in the mix. A large section of .338 caliber bullets were designed for the 338 Win. Mag. which as you know, exceeds the velocity of the 338 Fed. I have found the 180 gr. Accubond to be accurate and very effective on larger game.
I haven't taken any game with Hornady's 200 gr. SST but this could work in the 338 Federal especially at sane ranges. From a rifle - I was getting 2475 fps with this bullet using W 748. Federal factory ammo with Nosler's 180 gr. AB produced 2720 fps from the same rifle. I was writing an article on a Savage when running these loads over the chronograph. You can figure roughly 200 fps slower velocity from a 15 inch pistol barrel.
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kgb
.30 Stingray
Posts: 129
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Post by kgb on May 15, 2021 11:02:56 GMT -5
I would guess to start with a Speer BTSP, turns out they do have a 225gr version. I research potential new options via the Ballistic Studies pages for how a particular bullet might be expected to perform, they do review the 338 Federal: www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.338+Federal.html
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Post by bradshaw on May 15, 2021 12:34:16 GMT -5
Trey.... with your arsenal, not sure why you want to use a .338/308 or .358/308 for reach-out shots. Pencil holes are a good way to lose deer.
.358 Winchester Perhaps you have silhouette shooting blood in you. As bigbrowndog says, the Speer .358 180 FP may offer the expansion you seek.
.338 Federal As Mark Hampton alludes, the .338 Winchester Magnum was the only .338 game in town for many years. I dug the fact that bullets were designed for the Win Mag, although there are exceptions. To my mind, the old Speer 200 Spitzer is a varmint bullet, and may work as a pig & deer bullet from the .308 case. Of course, there are Win Mag bullets which should not be used for lung shots on deer, as they don’t go to work until they encounter something the size of an elk; the old Trophy Bonded Bearclaw a case in point.
The Nosler Ballistic-Tip copied technology developed by CIL in Canada. Nosler’s early version developed a well-earned reputation for fragility. Which attracted IHMSA silhouetters who took their Unlimited single shots after game. I watched first generation Ballistic-Tips sailing downrange fragment between the pig (100 meters) and turkey (150 meters/164 yards). I did not see this from a Douglas or Shilen barrel, but from some T/C Contender barrels. Even later Ballistic-Tips expand feverishly.
Ballistic-Tips will drop less than less-sleek projectiles. Might want line up water jugs at anticipated distances as see what you get. David Bradshaw
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Post by x101airborne on May 15, 2021 13:54:10 GMT -5
Trey.... with your arsenal, not sure why you want to use a .338/308 or .358/308 for reach-out shots. Pencil holes are a good way to lose deer. David Bradshaw Yes Mr. Bradshaw. I understand. I stated in my opening post that I limit these rifles to 150 yards or so. That is not a "reach out" shot in my country. I also said I would not put (I believe I said the 338 Federal) on deer based on the lack of blood loss and tissue damage I am getting on hogs. And I completely agree that pencil holes are a recipe for disaster on deer. I tried one box of Remington Bronze Point ammo I was given once in 30-06. Had to shoot a buck 6 times before he expired from a coup de grace from a 44 magnum at 20 yards. Glad that junk is gone.
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Post by dougader on May 15, 2021 14:06:20 GMT -5
I was going to say, try the Nosler Ballistic Tips, Accubond and in 338, the 210 Partition.
I have the 338-06 and the Accubonds are what I use in it.
Guys on cast boolits hammer deer with the RCBS 35-200-FN cast bullet. I'm looking for one to use in my 35 Remington. Mihec is sold out on this clone, too. I checked...
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Post by potatojudge on May 15, 2021 19:05:08 GMT -5
Shooters pro shop has had 180 and 200 grain 338 Accubonds intermittently in stock. Both seem to do well in the Federal. The Scirocco is a good choice as well, or the partition if you can find them.
The trajectory isn’t much of a limitation in the Federal, but minimum expansion velocity is.
Is a 338 Wing Mag good for deer out to 600 yards? At what range does the 338 Fed have the same velocity as the WM at 600, given identical bullet weights? 700? 800? Sometimes our limitations are imaginary and it’s useful to realize that at some distances, the Fed and WM will have equivalent impact velocity.
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Post by x101airborne on May 15, 2021 20:28:28 GMT -5
Shooters pro shop has had 180 and 200 grain 338 Accubonds intermittently in stock. Both seem to do well in the Federal. The Scirocco is a good choice as well, or the partition if you can find them. The trajectory isn’t much of a limitation in the Federal, but minimum expansion velocity is. Is a 338 Wing Mag good for deer out to 600 yards? At what range does the 338 Fed have the same velocity as the WM at 600, given identical bullet weights? 700? 800? Sometimes our limitations are imaginary and it’s useful to realize that at some distances, the Fed and WM will have equivalent impact velocity. My guess is the 338 Federal has the same energy as the 338 Win Mag at 600 yards... at the muzzle?? This is precisely why I say, "I dont think someone thought this through.". And yes, I admit I bit; hook, line and sinker.
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Post by bigbrowndog on May 15, 2021 20:44:32 GMT -5
Airborne, you are seeing firsthand the issues people face when trying to deal with paper ballistics, or the correct term exterior ballistics, with no regard for terminal ballistics. The 338’s are a special category in that the vast majority of projectiles are made for MAGNUM velocities. The 338-06, 338RCM, and others of that size do fairly well with lighter bullets in that bore size, but not the majority of them. The .358’s are almost direct opposites, or were at one time. When I was into big .35’s, 358normas and 35/8mm mags,I had to pick very carefully which bullets I chose because the majority of those weren’t made to take the velocities generated by them. They were made for 35 Rem, 358win, 350rm, and 35 Whelen, push those bullets 400-500 FPS faster and you had a small bomb going off. Lots of bang flops, but also lots of thrown away meat. If you can find a good 180 or 200gr. bullet for your Federal I’d buy all you can, years ago a fellow wrote an article on the 33/08 his one bullet choice was the 210gr. Nosler Partition.
Trapr
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Post by bigbrowndog on May 15, 2021 21:05:49 GMT -5
BTW, I’m not saying you disregarded the terminal performance when making your choice. But it does look like the manufacturers got sold a niche product, and then found out special bullets would be needed to make it profitable.
Trapr
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Post by bradshaw on May 15, 2021 21:10:18 GMT -5
Shooters pro shop has had 180 and 200 grain 338 Accubonds intermittently in stock. Both seem to do well in the Federal. The Scirocco is a good choice as well, or the partition if you can find them. The trajectory isn’t much of a limitation in the Federal, but minimum expansion velocity is. Is a 338 Wing Mag good for deer out to 600 yards? At what range does the 338 Fed have the same velocity as the WM at 600, given identical bullet weights? 700? 800? Sometimes our limitations are imaginary and it’s useful to realize that at some distances, the Fed and WM will have equivalent impact velocity. ***** The killing power of the .338 Win Mag is not imaginary. In the process of putting meat in the freezer it etched in mind memorable hunts. I have no doubt the .338/308 is a fine cartridge, but I wouldn’t give it parity with the Win Mag, Any more than I pronounce the .308 Winchester equal to a .300 magnum on big stuff our yonder. I try not to be jaundiced, yet the .338 Win Mag holds dear memories in my heart and they ain’t for sale. Were I handed a .338 Federal and told, “this is all you have,” I’d truck lighter bullets than I feed the magnum. That is where the adjustment is made: lighter bullets. Old John Moses Browning was asked by the army to design a 37mm anti-aircraft gun. Uncle Sugar handed him the load, with the commandment, “Design it to shoot this.” Ole Browning hefted the cartridge, pursed his lips and said, “You’re going to want more velocity.” Uncle Suger waved him off, “No, make it for this cartridge.” Soon as Browning made his anti-aircraft gun, Uncle Sugar wanted more power. John Browning designed his guns around a cartridge. A bullet made for a cartridge a good thing. David Bradshaw
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Post by potatojudge on May 15, 2021 21:49:29 GMT -5
Shooters pro shop has had 180 and 200 grain 338 Accubonds intermittently in stock. Both seem to do well in the Federal. The Scirocco is a good choice as well, or the partition if you can find them. The trajectory isn’t much of a limitation in the Federal, but minimum expansion velocity is. Is a 338 Wing Mag good for deer out to 600 yards? At what range does the 338 Fed have the same velocity as the WM at 600, given identical bullet weights? 700? 800? Sometimes our limitations are imaginary and it’s useful to realize that at some distances, the Fed and WM will have equivalent impact velocity. ***** The killing power of the .338 Win Mag is not imaginary. In the process of pulling meat in the freeze it etched in mind memorable hunts. I have no doubt the .338/308 is a fine cartridge, but I wouldn’t give it parity with the Win Mag, Any more than I pronounce the .308 Winchester equal to a .300 magnum on big stuff our out yonder. I try not to be jaundiced, yet the .338 Win Mag holds dear memories in my heart and they ain’t for sale. Were I handed a .338 Federal and told, “this is all you have,” I’d truck lighter bullets than I feed the magnum. That is where the adjustment is made: lighter bullets. Old John Moses Browning was asked by the army to design a 37mm anti-aircraft gun. Uncle Sugar handed him the load, with the commandment, “Design it to shoot this.” Ole Browning hefted the cartridge, pursed his lips and said, “You’re going to want more velocity.” Uncle Ruger waved him off, “No, make it for this cartridge.” Soon as Browning made his anti-aircraft gun, Uncle Sugar wanted more power. John Browning designed his guns around a cartridge. Abullet made for the cartridges a good thing. David Bradshaw The killing power of the 338 WM is a great benchmark, widely regarded as very effective through elk sized game at longer ranges. Nosler’s 225 grain accubond 338 WM load is advertised as having a velocity of 2427 at 200 yards. Nosler’s load data for the 338 Federal shows Varget giving a muzzle velocity of 2424 fps using the same 225 grain accubond. The bullet doesn’t care what case it was pushed from when it hits the target. We don’t doubt the killing power of the 338 WM at 600 yards, but we imagine the limitation of the 338 Fed to be 150 yards. We can look at differences in muzzle velocity easily enough, but another way to look at this load is that the Federal is 200 yards behind the Win Mag.
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Post by dougader on May 15, 2021 22:30:42 GMT -5
Sectional density of the 150 grain .308 bullet is .226, a bullet regarded highly enough out west as a sufficient killer of mule deer and the blacktail that roam our forested hills.
The 338 Federal with a 180 grain Accubond, in Nosler 9 load data, shows SD of .225 and listed velocities of 2655 fps - 2734 fps from the 10 listed powder combinations.
My new Ruger American compact has an 18" barrel, the above listed 338 Federal a 20" barrel.
I imagine as a deer killer the 180 Accubond has necessary "English" for the job at 150 yards... as much a killer as my short barreled .308
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