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Post by x101airborne on Jan 31, 2021 18:50:35 GMT -5
I did not want to bugger up Max's Bovine Bash thread so I started this one.
I know all of us "casters" want to get the best of our bullets. Reading Max's thread got me to wondering... (This is how I ended up with my first kid. LOL.) Combining velocity, accuracy, wound channel and penetration; what alloys work and for what? So... to illustrate my question, let me make a mock list. BHN 9 - 11 = Good for non magnum loadings intended for small edible game, accuracy and plinking. BHN 12 - 18 = Good for standard magnum loadings up to (say) 1500 fps; Good game killing alloy for lighter than elk and such (smaller big game) BHN 19 - 24 = Magnum only (454 Casull, Linebaugh, JRH) For only large game AFTER proper testing is done to ensure bullets do not "grenade" on flesh and bone.
This is a MOCK list. This is to illustrate my question, not implying I am giving factual evidence of staying at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Please adjust to your liking! I want your opinion and how you got there. Also try to include what to add or limit in the lead mix to make the alloy perform as expected.
I have had jacketed bullets fail. I have had cast bullets fail. Good thing was most of the time the accuracy was there and the animal didn't suffer. I have lost two deer; after further testing it was not my accuracy that was the fault, the bullets were being driven too danged hard and were coming apart too early. The bullet is the weak link in our connection to the animal and I am sure a lot of you hunters and casters have pondered over this ad-nauseum. Hence why I believe Max is so specific to including pictures and testimonials of the bullets and the hunters that use them. (By the way Max; YOU THE MAN!!!!)
In a nutshell, with supplies being what they are, more people are going to start casting eventually. How do we support our brothers and sisters in shooting sports and educate them as to what they need to get the job done and done safely? (By safely, I mean to them, their firearms and limiting the amount of pain to the target or animal.)
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Post by flyingzebra on Jan 31, 2021 18:58:11 GMT -5
Also for the conversation, where does silver and copper fit into the alloy, how much, and when and for what purpose?
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Post by x101airborne on Jan 31, 2021 19:17:16 GMT -5
Also for the conversation, where does silver and copper fit into the alloy, how much, and when and for what purpose? Ooh! Good question!!
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Post by sixshot on Jan 31, 2021 21:38:20 GMT -5
In bullet casting some people like to make it plain & simple & others enjoy the chase of making nothing but absolutely perfect bullets that rival the finest jacketed bullets you can buy. The hard part for the beginning caster is understanding what is meant by the word "hardcast". In the early days casters like Elmer Keith & Phil Sharpe used alloys that were mostly 16-1 (lead & tin) & called their bullets hardcast. These bullets were only about an 11 BHN which really isn't a hard bullet. Lyman #2 measures 15 BHN & straight Linotype measures 22 BHN, much harder than what Elmer or Phil called a "hard" bullet. Tin isn't a great hardener, what you need is some antimony to get there, something the early casters didn't have. Fast forward to wheel weights, the magic metal for most bullet casters. This was the metal that allowed the average caster to use a metal that was available to everyone & had a hidden secret, you could heat treat it to take the hardness either up or down. Wheel weights have lead, a bit of tin, some antimony & a trace of arsenic that makes heat treating (water quenching) possible. Give your bullets a quick dip in some cold water, let them age somewhere between 3-10 days & they will age harden from their origanl 9-10 BHN of original wheel weight hardness up to somewhere around 18-22 BHN. Put those very same bullets in your wife's oven at about 400 degrees or slightly less for about 1 hour & you can take them much higher. With just tin & lead heat treating isn't possible. Then to make things a little more interesting a few years ago, along comes powder coating. Bingo! Now we take those some wheel weight alloy bullets that have been sweetened with some good linotype which is 22 BHN, blend them together 50/50 & then powder coat them, pop them in a toaster oven at 400 degrees for 12-15 minutes & they come out at 11 BHN....WHAT!!!! My bullets went softer, what happened? we annealed them down the other way. Now we've baked a very hard, flexible shell over are cast bullet, much like a full bodied gas check. These bullets, even though they are quite soft can be driven very fast & without leading. Your barrel & cylinder will stay clean, no smoke, crud, etc. I always shoot my cast bullets as soft as I can get away with & still maintain accuracy, some insist on shooting only very hard bullets, even at moderate velocities, if you do that you run the risk of gas cutting & leading your barrel. If you have good bullet fit you can shoot bullets that are quite soft & still maintain good accuracy & get good velocity. I seldom shoot alloys about 10-11 BHN that is powder coated & seldom ever recover a bullet. Before powder coating I seldom shot alloys above 14-15 BHN, almost never recovered a bullet & always looked for accuracy first With something over 100+ revolver kills that's what has worked for me using almost 100% cast bullets over 50 years.
Dick
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
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Post by Fowler on Jan 31, 2021 23:24:21 GMT -5
I read today that Veral Smith of LBT fame came up with a formula years ago for proper bullet hardness. Pressure divided by 1400= optimal hardness. So a 45 colt running a 45-270SAA bullet over 13.5gr of HS-6 and is approximately 20K pressure. So 20k/1400= 14.285 or an approx hardness of 14.
This fall right in line with what other were saying above.
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Post by bigbore5 on Feb 1, 2021 0:08:33 GMT -5
Veral based that on the formula for minimum pressure for obturation of the bullet. Brinell number multiplied by 1440. That's the minimum pressure required to obturate the bullet base. When I give bullets away, I will air cool them. That way whomever gets them can heat treat to the hardness they need.
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Post by x101airborne on Feb 1, 2021 7:17:17 GMT -5
Good replies, thank you all.
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Post by wheelguns on Feb 1, 2021 7:43:55 GMT -5
The problem that I have with that formula is; why does the bullet need to obturate if it fits correctly? Powder coat also changes things.
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jwp475
.375 Atomic
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Member is Online
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Post by jwp475 on Feb 1, 2021 8:38:04 GMT -5
The problem that I have with that formula is; why does the bullet need to obturate if it fits correctly? Powder coat also changes things. As long as the bullet is not undersize there us no need to obturate and there is no leading with average 22 to 24 brinnel cast bullet. I cast my bullets from clip on wheel weights water quenched and sized and loaded .454 bullets in my FA 83'S Without drama or leading and they were very accurate as well When shooting moose or buffalo I wanted a large meplat bullet with hardness for the best penetration. Not the only way to skin a cat but it always worked for me. Some want expansion and cast for it. Plenty of options with cast bullets
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Post by boolitdesigner on Feb 1, 2021 9:15:58 GMT -5
All of the above changes when you use an 2% antimony with very low tin percentage alloy and heat treat it. It's a entirely different world of accuracy and effectiveness.
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Post by x101airborne on Feb 1, 2021 12:42:47 GMT -5
All of the above changes when you use an 2% antimony with very low tin percentage alloy and heat treat it. It's a entirely different world of accuracy and effectiveness. Please tell us more!
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 1, 2021 13:07:39 GMT -5
The problem that I have with that formula is; why does the bullet need to obturate if it fits correctly? Powder coat also changes things. As long as the bullet is not undersize there us no need to obturate and there is no leading with av22 to 24 brinnel cast bullet. I cast my bullets from clip on wheel weights water quenched and sized and loaded .454 bullets in my FA 83'S Without drama or leading and they were very accurate as well When shooting moose or buffalo i wanted a large meplat bullet with hardness for the best penetration. Not the only way to skin a cat but it always worked for me. Some want expansion and cast for it. Plenty of options with cast bullets ----John Parker ***** As one who prefers both cast & jacketed, I confess Parker nails it in his last sentence, " Plenty of options with cast bullets.” And we have Dick Thompson to thank for expanding that horizon on Singleactions through his work with POWDER COAT. David Bradshaw
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Post by boolitdesigner on Feb 2, 2021 11:58:14 GMT -5
All of the above changes when you use an 2% antimony with very low tin percentage alloy and heat treat it. It's a entirely different world of accuracy and effectiveness. Please tell us more! With lower percentages of the hardening components of alloys, you can have a heat treated alloy that is hard on the surface and has a softer core hardness. Yep, I know experts say this can't happen, but testing shows it does. You have to cast at the bottom of the hardening scale to do it. If you use 1/2 wheelweights and 1/2 pure lead, cast it at about 725 degrees where the sprue hardens in about 3 to 4 seconds and water drop the bullets, you will find out for yourself. I cast hollow points this way in my designs for the magnum pistol cartridges as well as shooting them in the 308 at about 2,400 fps in semi autos..... no leading whatsoever!
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Post by x101airborne on Feb 2, 2021 14:17:19 GMT -5
Excellent information! In these times of unavailable components, knowing certain alloys can be pushed that fast in a rifle can sure help keep us going! Thank you for taking the time to explain!
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weiler
.30 Stingray
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Post by weiler on Feb 17, 2021 21:27:28 GMT -5
With lower percentages of the hardening components of alloys, you can have a heat treated alloy that is hard on the surface and has a softer core hardness. Yep, I know experts say this can't happen, but testing shows it does. You have to cast at the bottom of the hardening scale to do it. If you use 1/2 wheelweights and 1/2 pure lead, cast it at about 725 degrees where the sprue hardens in about 3 to 4 seconds and water drop the bullets, you will find out for yourself. I cast hollow points this way in my designs for the magnum pistol cartridges as well as shooting them in the 308 at about 2,400 fps in semi autos..... no leading whatsoever! great stuff boolitdesigner, thanks much for sharing. may i ask what’s your choice of bullet lube?
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