Contenders / Encores... attempting to avoid any BATF issues

[magnumwheelman]

Anyone that has these has all heard the issues associated with BATF regulations... ( No Rifle Stocks & Pistol barrels "short barrel rifles" no converting a rifle into a handgun ) just the nature of the TC guns, has created issues & confusion...

( I've heard that TC has won law suites with the BATF, but as a responsible gun owner, I certainly would hate to even go there )

Mrs & I inherited 4 older Contender actions, & a collection of handgun, carbine, & a shotgun barrels, a drawer full of pistol grips, butt stocks, forends, hardware, scope mounts & etc... I'm looking at adding a couple Encores & both Rifle & pistol barrels are sure to follow...

with the internet chatter, I decided to go right to S&W / TC & ask...

My question

We inherited a Contender collection from my father in law… 4 frames, and about a dozen assorted carbine & pistol barrels… & I am currently looking into buying a couple Encores ( in fact I have just commissioned 2 custom barrels to be built from a reputable custom builder ) … just wondering if there is a way of tracing by serial if there are any rifle frames in my possession ( not “supposed” to convert the rifle to a pistol issue ) maybe how TC gets around this, is that all are manufactured as handgun frames??? Or is there a list of serials for the Contenders & Encores that were made as rifle actions???

I got a response today from them...

Dear Customer,
The older contenders unfortunately we wouldn't be able to tell if it had left here as a pistol frame or rifle frame. As for the encores we can tell you how it left the factory. We would only need the serial numbers and we can tell you.
Smith&Wesson values its customers and we are happy to have served you today. Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require further assistance.

So... I guess I'm going to dedicate & maybe even have "rifle" & "pistol" engraved into my Contender Actions ( I don't have a problem dedicating 1 or 2 to carbine barrels, & 2 or 3 to handgun barrels...

& doing the same with the Encores, only checking the serials to confirm if they were rifle or handgun actions, & engrave and dedicate those to either rifle or handgun...

That said, I don't know what they expect the average guy with only 1 action to do, when they may have a Muzzleloader barrel, a shotgun barrel, a rifle barrel, & a handgun barrel

[contender]

In general,, from my discussions with ATF Field enforcement officers,, a LOT depends upon the assembled configuration of the gun when they inspect or find it. If it has handgun hardware,, then it's a handgun. If it has rifle hardware,, then it's a rifle. If you have a stock on a 10" bbl,, THEN you have issues.
Due to decades of production, confusion, and most importantly,, the multiple owners,, it's nearly impossible to know how the original frame was sold. So,, they rely heavily upon the current assy to guide their actions.

[magnumwheelman]

Guessing a "classic" single shot is not going to raise any eyebrows weather it's set up as a handgun or a rifle... ( ... & I'm so... not into this look ) but I've seen "AR" style adjustable stocks, techy bipod style forarms for the Contenders & Encores for sale now... guessing you could raise an eye brow or two... if your single shot is all "tech'd" out in "evil black" furniture... so in those cases it might be nice to know everything is "legal" after all, we don't know for sure the reaction of future politics

[bradshaw]

Wouldn’t touch with a stick a Contender frame engraved with “pistol” or “rifle.” Never heard of such a thing. Suspect the challenge is to not have a buttstock and barrel under 16” on a Contender frame at the same time. T/C sent me a then-new Contender barrel in .45-70, crowned at 16-1/4-inch. This insures the barrel goes with buttock and without. It’s better with buttstock. During chronograph/accuracy work, I taped a 26 pound bar of linotype to the barrel, rest the lead forend on sandbag. Then draped a 25 lb bag of birdshot over the scope.

Took the gun to a couple of IHMSA silhouette matches, where a few of the animal-types delighted in bashing iron pigs @ 100 meters with stepped-up loads. No one volunteered to shoot the whole match with that cannon.

Thompson/Center was not into flouting ATF regulations.... as witness .410 Contender barrel: attachable barrel extension with straight rifling was intended to prevent the barrel----rifled for .45 Colt----from broadcasting shot like a manure spreader.

Never heard of T/C making a Contender frame as anything but a pistol.
David Bradshaw

[magnumwheelman]

Not Sure if the G-2's or stainless actions might be traceable by serial, to how they left the factory??? ( S&W chose to use the word "older" rather than G-1 / G-2 )... all my Contender actions are 1st generation, all blued...

[taffin]

This was legally decided decades ago. If it is a pistol stock with a pistol barrel it is a pistol; if it is a rifle stock with a rifle barrel it is a rifle. If it is a rifle stock with a pistol barrel it is illegal (and no I do not understand the logic of this!) If it is a pistol stock with a rifle barrel it is okay.

[flyingzebra]

Jan 27, 2021 11:00:57 GMT -5 taffin said:

This was legally decided decades ago. If it is a pistol stock with a pistol barrel it is a pistol; if it is a rifle stock with a rifle barrel it is a rifle. If it is a rifle stock with a pistol barrel it is illegal (and no I do not understand the logic of this!) If it is a pistol stock with a rifle barrel it is okay.

This

[nhithaca]

And another thing to think about; if you do all the paper work, wait a year and pay the $200 "tax" the only thing registered is the frame. Which can now be used as a pistol, a short barrel rifle or a 16"+ rifle. Just don't mixup which frame is which if you own 2 or more.

[matt56]

Jan 27, 2021 11:00:57 GMT -5 taffin said:

This was legally decided decades ago. If it is a pistol stock with a pistol barrel it is a pistol; if it is a rifle stock with a rifle barrel it is a rifle. If it is a rifle stock with a pistol barrel it is illegal (and no I do not understand the logic of this!) If it is a pistol stock with a rifle barrel it is okay.

These are the rules I live by.  I have so far bought one bare frame, 2 pistols and one frame that the guy said I had to do the extra paperwork because it used to be a pistol.  I wanted the frame and I didn't argue with him.


I do have a 16 inch 223 barrel and a buttstock for one of the frames but truthfully those parts will fit any of them at any time.   Being a single shot pistol, rifle, whatever I would hope the BATF doesn't focus on slamming us all in jail for constructive intent.   

[edk]

Things change but before there was any S&W involvement, a person could just call TC in Rochester NH and the fine folks would simply look it up and tell you "pistol" or "rifle". They would even tell you what barrel it shipped with or whether it was a bare frame. Did S&W get those record with the sale? Who knows? I cant think of a single thing good that has come out of that sale.

I once told a custom maker I wanted a 16"+ barrel. Got a reply that according to the regs the "+" was unnecessary and they could simply make it 16.000". I didn't want to go there...

[leadhound]

www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

not sure how current this is?

[rvolvr]

Jan 27, 2021 17:23:24 GMT -5 edk said:

Things change but before there was any S&W involvement, a person could just call TC in Rochester NH and the fine folks would simply look it up and tell you "pistol" or "rifle". They would even tell you what barrel it shipped with or whether it was a bare frame. Did S&W get those record with the sale? Who knows? I cant think of a single thing good that has come out of that sale.

I once told a custom maker I wanted a 16"+ barrel. Got a reply that according to the regs the "+" was unnecessary and they could simply make it 16.000". I didn't want to go there...

When TC was still in Rochester, NH, I called and asked about the shipped status of my Original Contender, which I bought in '81 as a pistol, from IHMSA. They could not provide any data due to a major fire at the factory which destroyed all history to that point. So the issue goes back well before any S&W involvement.

Further, over the years, the BATF has waffled more than a couple times on this issue, typically with changes of administration. Whatever they said yesterday, as in 26Jan2021, I wouldn't give two cents for today.

You can call me crazy, but in order to avoid any possible future legal repercussions for my wife or kids if I die tomorrow, I've disposed of my rifle components. All my Contender stuff is pistol. Period.

And yes, according to the representative I spoke to in NH, TC did designate complete guns shipped with rifle barrels attached as rifles in their BATF docs. To my knowledge (admittedly limited), bare frames shipped from the factory as "Other Firearm" (or "undesignated"). See BATF 4473, Section C, Line 24: "Handgun / Long Gun / Other Firearm (Frame, Receiver, etc."). The SSK-50 frames offered over a year ago (but not in production yet!) by Haus of Arms were offered available as "undesignated", at the buyers discretion . For those concerned about the legal status, this could be a plus. But swapping back and forth - THAT is the question. Do what you want, and take your chances you'll never have to deal with it.

Following is a quote from Magnum Mike, President of SpecialtyPistols.com forum:

THE GREAT DEBATE: Converting Rifles to Pistols
"This thread is to serve notice that this topic will no longer be discussed. It always leads to a heated debate that eventually breaks down to an argument. If you have questions on this topic, read the FAQ's at the ATF's website.

Any threads that attempt this debate will be deleted without notice."

 

[rvolvr]

Jan 27, 2021 17:23:24 GMT -5 edk said:

I once told a custom maker I wanted a 16"+ barrel. Got a reply that according to the regs the "+" was unnecessary and they could simply make it 16.000". I didn't want to go there...

Good call. If the maker cut it to 16.000 when his facility was 90 deg, and the BATF decided to measure it in their test lab at a controlled 70 deg., they'd have you by the short ones. An extra 1/4 inch hurts nothing. 

[cas]

It's not your fault your late father in law told you they were all bought as pistols.
Don't shoot anyone or rob a gas station and you should be fine.

[bradshaw]

John Taffin paints it Country Simple.

Now, on the funny side: IHMSA rules set the barrel length limit for Unlimited guns at 15-inches. No one would put you in ball & chain for having a 15-1/4” barrel, but it might bar you from competing in a sanctioned match.

Boyd Carpenter shows up a the IHMSA World Championship with an unlimited gun built on XP-100 action. Barrel musta measured all of 15-1/8”, bolt face to crown. Boyd, fixing to go on the line, gets shot down at inspection. None other than IHMSA vice president Bert Stringfellow, who knows Carpenter well, refuses to certify Boyd’s gun. Being the sport he is, a machinist and all, Boyd saws off the muzzle on the tailgate of his truck.... passes inspection.... steps up on the Firing Line and cleans the course----80x80. Yeah, Boyd Carpenter knows the taste of nerve pressure.
David Bradshaw