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Post by nolongcolt on Dec 16, 2020 12:05:44 GMT -5
No way I can really tell, no bore scope, or really even any interest, like the saying goes as long as it works.
My only interest was whether it was ECM or cut/broached rifling, not whether the bore was perfect or not.
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Post by bigbore5 on Dec 16, 2020 22:52:16 GMT -5
I would love to find an edm "machined" barrel. The ones I have dealt with could split a human hair into 100 pieces!
That kind of accuracy would really make a sweet barrel. Most of what they made where precision gear sets so small they would set on a pin head.
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 17, 2020 14:49:55 GMT -5
I would love to find an edm "machined" barrel. The ones I have dealt with could split a human hair into 100 pieces! That kind of accuracy would really make a sweet barrel. Most of what they made where precision gear sets so small they would set on a pin head. ***** bigbore5..... asked Ronnie Wells this morning about rifling via Electro Chemical Machining. Ronnie says is possible; surface of the grooves will be rough and need to be lapped or polished. David Bradshaw |
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Post by bigbore5 on Dec 17, 2020 18:26:46 GMT -5
Not ECM but EDM. The EDM process produces a shiney finish on the parts they made at the defense contractor we installed them at. But missile parts for guidance systems are probably more precise than regular manufacturing and priced accordingly.
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 17, 2020 19:12:43 GMT -5
Not ECM but EDM. The EDM process produces a shiney finish on the parts they made at the defense contractor we installed them at. But missile parts for guidance systems are probably more precise than regular manufacturing and priced accordingly. ****** bigbore5..... according to Ronnie Wells, you may have your EDM (Electro Discharge Machining) rifling, but you’re GROOVES WILL BE STRAIGHT. Spiral grooves are not on the menu. David Bradshaw |
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Post by bigbore5 on Dec 17, 2020 19:22:18 GMT -5
I'm sure there's a way if I put some thought into the design. I'll sit down with my engineering manager and talk to him about it. He's a gun nut too, but only about derringers for some reason. If possible to spiral the rifling by edm, he'll know how to pull it off.
I'm much more of a millwright than an engineer. But that's why I hired him and the others!😁 I don't have to be a genius as long as I can hire guys who are.
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,162
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Post by edk on Dec 18, 2020 8:12:39 GMT -5
Have a few chambers that have been cut by EDM instead of a reamer. The surface finish resembles a really fine glass beaded effect.
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Post by bigbore5 on Dec 18, 2020 8:51:27 GMT -5
That effect is caused by the pulse wavelength. On the more expensive setup it gets much finer. The only ones I have installed are used to make miniature parts for missile systems and nuclear triggers by a defense contractor. Millions of dollars each. They produced a vary shiney finish between brushed and polished looking as machined. But the edm gun parts I have used in the past don't have that high of a finish.
The point in wanting an electro machined barrel would be the consistency possible. Very fine tolerances are possible. Even using the coarser systems it is still consistent throughout the barrel. It just may need lapping. I do that to most factory barrels anyway. Most handguns will out shoot me anyway. It's in the precision rifle I think it could add with less lapping.
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Post by Lee Martin on Dec 18, 2020 8:54:44 GMT -5
The military researched EDM for rifling back in the 70's. Here's the report: apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b006226.pdfWay too problematic, especially with small bores and rifle length barrels. With all the different ways to rifle, the top barrel makers still single-point cut or button. If there was a more accurate way, they'd be doing it. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by bigbore5 on Dec 18, 2020 9:05:42 GMT -5
Talked to our chief engineer a little while ago. He says it could be possible to do, but couldn't be cost effective and probably wouldn't work well for the inside machining of the small diameter bore sizes. He said it would have to be probably .40" or larger. Oh well, it's been interesting to think about. Appreciate all yalls input.
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Post by RDW on Dec 18, 2020 10:53:06 GMT -5
Clarification here on my part. EDM anodic type very shiny, very smooth depending on the chemical parts are submerged in. Wire edm not so much!
Lot of defense department stuff i have seen is very close tolerance and chemically polished in the process. The wire EDM stuff i have done is definitely close tolerance but the finish needs some love.
Wire EDM work is for straight lines but i have seen some crazy cuts made on turbine blades.
I would be willing to bet anything can be accomplished with Electrical discharge machining but as Lee pointed out, it doesnt stand to reason that it would be cost effective for gun parts like barrels.
It is slow and requires a bunch of cash outlay just to tool up much less the initial cost of the machine.
Isnt it funny how nut bags like me are always looking for a better way to make stuff? Hahaha. I think its like having a mental condition!
BigBore5, I agree with your engineer. 7/16 to about a half inch i think would be the limit because you would have to have enough of a deteriorating anode to go into the bore.
Titanium anodes in nickel plating don't deteriorate but then you have to depend on the bath to contain all of the nickel that you plate on to the part. if you use cm200 anode it will deteriorate but it will also keep
the nickel bath PPM up longer. If you had a rifled anode it would be subject to electrical warpage in the bore if it was say .200 thousands in diameter for making a .223 bore. Just thinking! Havent tried that yet.
But who knows man, its 2020 almost 2021, they might be able to 3d print one soon. Hahaha.
Great thread man!
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,162
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Post by edk on Dec 18, 2020 15:14:17 GMT -5
It's in the precision rifle I think it could add with less lapping. Likewise it is in that application as well the EDM chambering method shines. Total control over chamber dimensions regardless of whether creating a SAAMI chamber or wildcat. Chamber dimensions are not dependent upon a reamer supplier. One really cool aspect is having custom dies burned on the same system. Absolutely no overworked brass and a perfect fit to the chamber. Much of this pretty much a waste on straight-wall cartridges fired from a sixgun. |
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Post by bigbore5 on Dec 18, 2020 18:18:17 GMT -5
The only real problem is I don't just have the 14.8 million NG was paying for the ones we put in laying around to experiment with. Maybe those Powerball tickets will work out.
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 18, 2020 18:39:49 GMT -5
The only real problem is I don't just have the 14.8 million NG was paying for the ones we put in laying around to experiment with. Maybe those Powerball tickets will work out. ***** Cheap enough for the chance to blow the doors off silhouette champions shooting revolvers with broached and button rifled barrels, along with assorted steel shooters busting rams over iron sights from 547 yards. Meanwhile, I have a couple revolvers I’ll throw against a $15,000,000 sixshooter, and they’ve been around the block. Zeus might even have a gun to join in the fray. And from there we go to offhand.... David Bradshaw |
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Post by bigbore5 on Dec 18, 2020 18:56:16 GMT -5
I can't shoot with you two masters. But I do okay up close. Most my handgun training was door to door against targets that shot back! I much prefer the steel kind now
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