Handloader magazine - .357 Maximum

[Encore64]

Having read all of Elgin Gates work, I have to agree.

I simply won't argue over who "stole" what from who. It's always quite possible the same idea originates in different places.

I laugh at those who slam the 300 Blackout as being stolen (it was) while sporting their 275 Rigby (a renamed 7x57 Mauser).

[oddshooter]

I really enjoy reading historical accounts; but I always take them with a grain of salt. Winners tend to write history, and they may have a personal interest in how the story goes. When it comes to inventions, the truth gets even more difficult.

I'm guessing several people had the idea long before Elgin Gates. Lengthening a cartridge case is not a NEW idea.

I'm always fascinated by people believing that they can identify who first thought of an idea.
Even Patent dates are often contested and that's where there are lots of documentation.

The autonomous electric car wasn't invented by Elon Musk, but he's done a great job of making it a reality. So what's more essential; the idea or the execution?

A question I'm pretty sure doesn't have a definitive answer.

The Handloader article doesn't help clarify anything with any new information. All we know is that the author parrots what he's heard.

[squawberryman]

So what's the diff between TC loads and a Blackhawk? Can the Ruger cylinder and frame NOT handle a load the TC will?

[seminolewind]

In this particular article, the main bullets used were spitzer type, which when loaded have an overall length too long for a Ruger cylinder.

[ezekiel38]

IIRC the standard Contender pistol frame was good for 45,000 psi. And the Ruger was running at a higher pressure.

[lockhart]

Nov 11, 2020 15:59:58 GMT -5 seminolewind said:

The article was a little disappointing as it was about reloading the Max for singleshots, not revolvers. That, and the fact that the author gave credit for the development of the 357 Maximum cartridge to Elgin Gates instead of Bill Ruger, Jr., as David Bradshaw has related to us. I didn't gain any new knowledge from the article. There is a pretty good article on Swift bullets in this issue though.

Hahahahahaha, GATES gave Gates credit too!  I remember reading his "development" steps in The Silhouette paper IHMSA put out.  Brazing extensions on to .357 mag cases, etc.  I think lots of silhouette shooters swallowed that BS when the paper was published.

[Lee Martin]

With Bradshaw's help, I pieced together the history of the Maximum and ensuing SuperMags. I've also collected many articles on the cartridges dating back to their inception. I have yet to see a ".357 SuperMag" in print prior to late 1980 when David let the Maximum slip to Elgin. If such proof exists, please post it here (or send me the details at [e-mail]). And for those interested in the history as I know it:

www.singleactions.com/TheSuperMags.html

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

[bradshaw]

Dec 25, 2020 9:37:33 GMT -5 oddshooter said:

I really enjoy reading historical accounts; but I always take them with a grain of salt. Winners tend to write history, and they may have a personal interest in how the story goes. When it comes to inventions, the truth gets even more difficult.

I'm guessing several people had the idea long before Elgin Gates. Lengthening a cartridge case is not a NEW idea.

I'm always fascinated by people believing that they can identify who first thought of an idea.
Even Patent dates are often contested and that's where there are lots of documentation.

The autonomous electric car wasn't invented by Elon Musk, but he's done a great job of making it a reality. So what's more essential; the idea or the execution?

A question I'm pretty sure doesn't have a definitive answer.

The Handloader article doesn't help clarify anything with any new information. All we know is that the author parrots what he's heard.

*****

Prescut.... reckon Christmas is as good as anytime too straighten the story on the Ruger .357 Maximum. I first learned of its development when Bill Ruger invited me to dinner at his house in Croydon, New Hampshire. I had won the first International Revolver Championship (1980) with the S410N Super Blackhawk, aka, Silhouette Super, the 10-1/2” .44 Mag released in 1979 for IHMSA competition. Bill, Jr., was present. The old man handed me a New Model Blackhawk with long cylinder. Bill Ruger described what they were up to. Bill gauged my reserved enthusiasm and asked if I’d like to participate in the development, which most likely would require a new frame. Bill, Jr., handed me a green & yellow Remington box stamped “EXPERIMENTAL.” This new .357 had a 1.490-inch case.

Bill Ruger wanted my SHOOTING IMPRESSION. I would not be responsible for anything to do with metallurgy or manufacturing. I could shoot days at a time, it didn’t matter, but it would be in his backyard. Except to go to the factory or another Ruger property, I would not take guns prototype guns anywhere else. Bill asked me to keep it “under your hat.” My connects were Bill and Bill, Jr., with tangential contact with Southport plant manager Frank Boneventura and Newport plant manager Stan Terhune.

Upon my return from one or another trip to Ruger’s, I called Elgin Gates, told him of my invitation to participate in development of this new cartridge, the .357 Maximum.

Elgin listens intently----perhaps a little too intently----without saying a word. At no time does Elgin mention a “super mag.” I didn’t hear about the “.357 Super Mag,” I read about it! In all my close contact with Elgin, and staying in his house in Idaho Falls, never once was I shown a sketch, a drawing, a cartridge case, or any other evidence Elgin had a “Super Mag” until after Ruger’s .357 Maximum. The .375 Super Mag, which came later, is an Elgin cartridge. It’s a useful specialty cartridge, poorly suited to the Dan Wesson Arms Model 40. The .445 Super Mag represents Elgin Gates’ attempt to dethrone Dick Casull’s .454; it doesn’t come close. The .414 Super Mag is Elgin trying to cover all bases. The .414 SM has all kinds of potential; think special bullets & fast twist.

The deeper one digs into the history of the .357 Maximum, the worse it looks for Elgin Gates.
David Bradshaw

[sixshot]

David, if you stayed at Elgin's place on Sunnyside Drive in Idaho Falls you must have seen those 2 life size African Lions in his garage & that huge Cape Buffalo skull with the 458 Winchester hole through the front of the head, pretty impressive!
Wish I knew where Al Beckstead was at, me & Elgin went there many times & he did a lot of gun work for Elgin, most all of it was on custom TC's. That was in Preston, Idaho. The business was called, MarshAls Gunsmithing.

Dick

[bradshaw]

Dec 25, 2020 13:55:34 GMT -5 sixshot said:

David, if you stayed at Elgin's place on Sunnyside Drive in Idaho Falls you must have seen those 2 life size African Lions in his garage & that huge Cape Buffalo skull with the 458 Winchester hole through the front of the head, pretty impressive!
Wish I knew where Al Beckstead was at, me & Elgin went there many times & he did a lot of gun work for Elgin, most all of it was on custom TC's. That was in Preston, Idaho. The business was called, MarshAls Gunsmithing.

Dick

*****

Dick.... the huge, full body mount lions were in Elgin’s game room. Impressive, to say the least, and just a fraction of his trophies. Spent more time time at Elgin’s loading bench than anywhere else.
David Bradshaw

[kgb]

Dad had bought a Contender in .357 Mag and apparently read about the Maximum some time after. The gun's got a 10" octagon barrel and a thin, tapered grip with a thumb rest, he had the chamber reamed to Maximum. That gun was no fun to shoot with the Maximum loads and I wondered how well that scalloped 158gr JHP the factory ammo used would work at the higher velocity. Dad never had the chance to try it on deer, but I remember he loaded Federal brass with 180gr bullets.

[bradshaw]

Dec 25, 2020 17:47:22 GMT -5 kgb said:

Dad had bought a Contender in .357 Mag and apparently read about the Maximum some time after. The gun's got a 10" octagon barrel and a thin, tapered grip with a thumb rest, he had the chamber reamed to Maximum. That gun was no fun to shoot with the Maximum loads and I wondered how well that scalloped 158gr JHP the factory ammo used would work at the higher velocity. Dad never had the chance to try it on deer, but I remember he loaded Federal brass with 180gr bullets.

*****

First game to fall to the .357 Maximum was a running whitetail buck. Open hardwoods, 40 yards, sights sweep to the forward point of the should and a bit ahead. A Hornady 158 JHP chronographing 1,956 fps from a prototype Blackhawk Maximum with 10-1/2” barrel. Believe the load was 24.8/Hercules 2400 in Remington 1.605” brass with Remington 7-1/2 small rifle primer. The deer didn’t appear to break stride but piled up in about twenty yards with dilapidated lungs. The bullet hit about two feet behind Point of Aim----where it was supposed to go. This is with FOLLOW THROUGH. Without follow through the bullet might have struck 4 to 6 feet behind POA. The same load fired in your Contender 10-inch octagon might clock 2,100 fps.

Thompson/Center tapered octagon barrels for Contender were nearly a standard feature during earlier production, and many showed up at IHMSA tournaments. These light, beautiful barrels kick like fury in some calibers and quickly lost favor in silhouette as Contender cranked out bull 10” bull barrels for Production and 14” bull barrels for Unlimited. Warren Center told this shooter considerable labor goes into the octagon barrels. Polishers must have a lot of practice. Correct polishing is an old school craft.

Your description of recoil suggests you were shooting a T/C wood grip. My favored stock for the Contender is Pachmayr Presntation or, preferably, a Pachmayr Gripper.

H4227/IMR 4227 is the benchmark powder for the .357 Maximum.
David Bradshaw

[Quick Draw McGraw]

Dec 25, 2020 21:30:11 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

Dec 25, 2020 17:47:22 GMT -5 kgb said:

Dad had bought a Contender in .357 Mag and apparently read about the Maximum some time after. The gun's got a 10" octagon barrel and a thin, tapered grip with a thumb rest, he had the chamber reamed to Maximum. That gun was no fun to shoot with the Maximum loads and I wondered how well that scalloped 158gr JHP the factory ammo used would work at the higher velocity. Dad never had the chance to try it on deer, but I remember he loaded Federal brass with 180gr bullets.

*****

First game to fall to the .357 Maximum was a running whitetail buck. Open hardwoods, 40 yards, sights sweep to the forward point of the should and a bit ahead. A Hornady 158 JHP choreographing 1,956 fps from a prototype Blackhawk Maximum with 10-1/2” barrel. Believe the load was 24.8/Hercules 2400 in Remington 1.605” brass with Remington 7-1/2 small rifle primer. The deer didn’t appear to break stride but piled up in about twenty yards with dilapidated lungs. The bullet hit about two feet behind Point of Aim----where it was supposed to go. This is with FOLLOW THROUGH. Without follow through the bullet might have struck 4 to 6 feet behind POA. The same load fired in your Contender 10-inch octagon might clock 2,100 fps.

Thompson/Center tapered octagon barrels for Contender were nearly a standard feature during earlier production, and many showed up at IHMSA tournaments. These light, beautiful barrels kick like fury in some calibers and quickly lost favor in silhouette as Contender cranked out bull 10” bull barrels for Production and 14” bull barrels for Unlimited. Warren Center told this shooter considerable labor goes into the octagon barrels. Polishers must have a lot of practice. Correct polishing is an old school craft.

Your description of recoil suggests you were shooting a T/C wood grip. My favored stock for the Contender is Pachmayr Presntation or, preferably, a Pachmayr Gripper.

H4227/IMR 4227 is the benchmark powder for the .357 Maximum.
David Bradshaw

I remember you twlling me how well these powders work in the Max. Using IMR 4227, im getting really solid accuracy with my Ruger Blackhawk Maximum. And impressive velocities around 1,600 fps with 180 grain Sierra JFPs! Your advice has been very helpful and very appreciated.

[oddshooter]

Sometimes I think I've read it all on the Maximum.

At that point; David, or Lee, usually comes through with more incredible first-hand History.


I was very disappointed in the Handloader article and the author and the Editor. The truth is out there, but you need to seek it. Those guys failed and now we have it in print for all time. What a tragedy. I put it right "down" there with the Bob Milek article that wounded the Maximum originally.

Maybe a new Coffee-Table edition on just the 357 Maximum is due. I understand the need for marketing and advertising in business; however, when self-aggrandizement overtakes historical accuracy, it's time to
call in the calvary.


Rant over,
Prescut

[seminolewind]

Wish I'd said that.