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Post by ddixie884 on Aug 13, 2020 5:23:59 GMT -5
I have been known to load Alliant 2400 in the .38spl and I got a pound of VV N110 in a few days ago. I started out at 10gr 2400 and worked up to 11 and I like it. I decided today to try some N110 so I loaded a few at 10gr and fired them through my SP101 with a few PPU 158gr RN for comparison. They were moderate recoil and not overly loud with muffs on, like I can hear. There wasn't much to pick from between the two loads. The N110 wasn't smokey and little to no unburned powder grains. This is my first use of N110 and boy does it meter and pour well. I came back and loaded some on 10.5 and 11gr to try later. Anyone have any opinions on this endeavor? If so, share your thoughts...........
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Post by 45MAN on Aug 14, 2020 7:25:13 GMT -5
ASSUMING THE REVOLVER IS UP TO THE TASK, MY EXPERIENCE WITH N110 (NONE WITH THE 38 SPL THOUGH) IS THAT YOU WON'T GET TO THE "SWEET SPOT" UNTIL YOU GET NO UNBURNED POWDER. I USE N110 IN 357 MAG, 45 COLT, 480R, 475L AND 500JRH.
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Post by oddshooter on Aug 15, 2020 9:30:04 GMT -5
Hey dixie,
I have found the VV to be very stable. Unlike H110, N110 can be downloaded without issues. I have also found the accuracy to be stellar. Cleaner is just a bonus.
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Post by ddixie884 on Aug 18, 2020 12:28:34 GMT -5
I believe 11gr will probably be my limit in .38spl with N110. My Pet Heavy .38spl load has been 11gr 2400 with a 158gr swc. I feel the N110 load is equal to this also. Using these loads in my 4" M15-3 S&W make it a pretty good using utility truck gun around the place...........
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Post by oddshooter on Aug 18, 2020 21:51:22 GMT -5
hey bud, That model 15 is a sweet piece. I have one and a 14 with 8 3/8" barrel that I dearly love to shoot. The 38's are some of the most accurate rounds I have shot, and little groups are always fun.
Where did you get the load data for N110 in 38 special using 158g swc? What velocity are you expecting?
N110 is normally thought of as a fast rifle powder or magnum handgun powder. The new VV site shows lots of N340 and N350 loads in 38 special (some of my favorite), but I see nothing for the N110. I checked my old VV load data tables and there was nothing there either. There was a 158g N110 load in 357mag that also showed a N340 load. Using that would subject me to some extrapolation which always makes me nervous.
My SWAG (Scientific Wild Azz Guess) lands somewhere between 1000fps and 1200fps. That's pushing a 38 special pretty hard. I suggest you watch for any signs on ejecting the brass for difficulty or primer issues. Anything that might show pressure.
I just read Speer says pressure may spike using magnum primers and N110. They recommend standard instead. I can only guess that was for 357mag as well.
Be careful, bud.
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Post by ddixie884 on Aug 20, 2020 13:07:21 GMT -5
I couldn't find any data but N110 seems to be regarded as roughly equivalent to 2400 in most folks minds. Onelight on the Cast Boolits forum posted a page from an old VV load book for a 180gr with 9.3 to 9.8gr N110. I have used from 10 to 11gr 2400 in k frames for years and regard slower powders as easier on guns. I tried 10gr N110 and got fall out extraction in my SP101 so tried 10.5 and 11gr in my M15 and LCR. I don't use these really extreme loads in .38spl every day but it is useful to have a few in my truck to use instead of going back to the house for a bigger gun. I do this in my guns but don't necessarily recommend it to others. I regard these loads as roughly equivalent to 5.5gr Unique under the same 158gr swc and until I chrony VV110, I'll just take it for granted that it is roughly equal to the 2400 loads I have used for years. I tried this for my own info and just shared it on a coupla boards that I post on........
As for velocity I guesstimate 1,000 to 1,100fps in my 4"........
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Post by oddshooter on Aug 20, 2020 17:13:52 GMT -5
I just read your post on castboolits.com. Interesting read on a thread that was 10 years old. Nice revival.
I've looked twice now for a table that contained both N110 and 2400. I wanted to compare the weight that each used to see if they number was the same for both. I've had no luck. I even checked MDSmith who has lots of different powders in every table.
My problem is that "roughly equivalent" is an expression I've read many times, but I always assumed it meant they were close on the burn rate chart. I never assumed it meant they could substitute the same weight in a load recipe. I often see 296 and H110 using almost exactly the same weight, but those two powders are the only ones I've seen like that. W231 and HP38 are also very close.
I often look for close to the same weight in a different powder load, but it usually involves some type of extrapolation which always bothers me for safety reasons.
I use N340 in 38 special and it is spectacular. I have some N110 as well and when I read your results, I may try some of that mojo myself.
This has been a fun search. Thanks for the entertaining diversion, Prescut
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Post by bradshaw on Aug 20, 2020 19:36:40 GMT -5
I just read your post on castboolits.com. Interesting read on a thread that was 10 years old. Nice revival. I've looked twice now for a table that contained both N110 and 2400. I wanted to compare the weight that each used to see if they number was the same for both. I've had no luck. I even checked MDSmith who has lots of different powders in every table. My problem is that "roughly equivalent" is an expression I've read many times, but I always assumed it meant they were close on the burn rate chart. I never assumed it meant they could substitute the same weight in a load recipe. I often see 296 and H110 using almost exactly the same weight, but those two powders are the only ones I've seen like that. W231 and HP38 are also very close. I often look for close to the same weight in a different powder load, but it usually involves some type of extrapolation which always bothers me for safety reasons. I use N340 in 38 special and it is spectacular. I have some N110 as well and when I read your results, I may try some of that mojo myself. This has been a fun search. Thanks for the entertaining diversion, Prescut ***** Prescut.... Hodgdon H110 is Winchester 296. Hodgdon HP-38 is Winchester 231. Haven’t tried Vihtavuori N110 in .38 Special. In .44 Mag, my experience puts VN110 and H110 (Win 296) just about neck & neck. ddixie884.... a standard load for the Model 19 consisted of swaged 158 JHP in copper 1/2-jacket, deep seated over 12/Hercules 2400 in Winchester or Remington .357 Mag brass, kicked with CCI 550 mag primer. David Bradshaw
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Post by ddixie884 on Sept 30, 2020 22:45:44 GMT -5
Back when .357 guns and brass were hard to come by and many folks had a shortage of hard cash S&W K frames in .38spl were used for a stand in. One load that I specifically "DO NOT RECOMMEND" was a hard cast 160gr over 12 to 12.5gr of H2400. This would be close to the same case capacity as a deep seated bullet in a .357 Magnum. 357s guns and brass are much more available today than in the 50s and 60s and even 70s. when the prevailing wage was $1.00 to $1.60 an hour a $100.00 handgun was 2 weeks wages.
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Post by ddixie884 on Dec 31, 2021 3:46:36 GMT -5
Larry Gibson loaded some test loads for me with 38spl 158gr Rim Rock swcbb on N110, Rem 1 1//2 spp fired in a Contender 7.9" with pressure trace.
11gr 1145fps sd 43fps, es 158fps. 26,000psi 12gr 1333fps sd 52fps, es 142fps, 26,700psi
Looks like they are a little bit strong for a K or a J frame. I was hoping for 22 or 23K. Oh well hope in one hand..................
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 31, 2021 9:44:28 GMT -5
Larry Gibson loaded some test loads for me with 38spl 158gr Rim Rock swcbb on N110, Rem 1 1//2 spp fired in a Contender 7.9" with pressure trace. 11gr 1145fps sd 43fps, es 158fps. 26,000psi 12gr 1333fps sd 52fps, es 142fps, 26,700psi Looks like they are a little bit strong for a K or a J frame. I was hoping for 22 or 23K. Oh well hope in one hand.................. ***** Handloading data requires specificity. Otherwise, it implies any bullet of the same weight may be substituted. “RN” always reads as LEAD Round Nose; unless specified otherwise, as in .38 158 SOFTBALL. Jacketed round nose should be called * FMJ (Full Metal Jacket). * TMJ (Total Metal Jacket)----Speer's electro-plate jacket development (from which the Gold Dot was developed). * MC (Metal Case). * Hardball. “SWC” always reads as LEAD Semi Wad Cutter, unless specified otherwise. ES (Extreme Spread)An ES of 158, with Sd (Standard Deviation) of 43 fps, indicates to me inconsistent burn & pressure. The best way to check this is to measure pressure of each shot, not one shot. Likewise, when 1-grain more powder jumps average velocity 188 fps (11/VN 110=1145 fps; 12/VN 110=1,333 fps), all is not well within the kettle. There may be a reason Vihtavuori doesn’t include V110 in published .38 Special data. David Bradshaw
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Post by ddixie884 on Dec 31, 2021 21:58:57 GMT -5
Yes sir. I realize all you said is true. I was specific on the bullet it is the magma swcbb as sold by Rim Rock. These are 10 shot averages and They are not laboratory tests for a manual. I realize the numbers would get better at a higher pressure. They already are too high. I was curious about this combination and had posted here earlier. I got the answers to my questions and just thought I would share. I'm sorry if I annoyed you by posting this..............
By the way I forgot to say the oal is 1.500 and a medium heavy crimp.........
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Post by oddshooter on Jan 1, 2022 10:12:02 GMT -5
Hey dixie,
I much appreciate the work you do with Vihtavouri. I'm a VV fan, but the data for them seems poor in comparison to other powders.
They've left it to us to figure it out hoping we don't do damage as we progress. I've written them several times and called, but haven't gotten anywhere. My normal complaint is about the lack of data for the .32H&Rmag or the .327fedmag. They said it should work great, but offered no specific guidance.
Your discovery of the upper end and beyond gave me pause immediately when you posted those 38 pressures. Your finishing comments about "a little bit strong" was welcomed and appreciated. I now have a clue about N110 and the 38. And a clue is better than nothing.
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 1, 2022 13:01:32 GMT -5
Yes sir. I realize all you said is true. I was specific on the bullet it is the magma swcbb as sold by Rim Rock. These are 10 shot averages and They are not laboratory tests for a manual. I realize the numbers would get better at a higher pressure. They already are too high. I was curious about this combination and had posted here earlier. I got the answers to my questions and just thought I would share. I'm sorry if I annoyed you by posting this.............. By the way I forgot to say the oal is 1.500 and a medium heavy crimp......... ***** ddixie.... not annoyed. I appreciate your information. Between measuring Average Velocity, Extreme Spread, Standard Deviation.... and Pressure, pressure remains the only volatile number. To put it Country Simple, pressure measured by one method may not match pressure measured by another method. Doesn’t mean either method is wrong, but it comes as close to the “apples & oranges” cliche as we get. 10 shots paints a deeper picture than 5 shots. Standard Deviation takes on meaning with 10 shots. 5-shot Sd means nothing to me. Extreme Spread is important , as it is a hard measure not calculated. High ES (Extreme Spread)* High ES----let’s just say 60 fps or more----grabs my attention. * High ES, say 100 to 150 fps, does not mean inaccuracy. Exceptions: 1) heavy bullet, wherein the slowest shot with longest BARREL TIME causes highest POI (Point of Impact) in a group. 2) long range where TRAJECTORY really kicks in. Slow powder wants to be held back before it goes to work. A heavy bullet creates HOLD BACK better than a heavy crimp. Smokeless powder is not an explosive, it must be held back to work. Even high explosives work better with hold back. Put 10 sticks of dynamite on a 6-foot granite boulder... touch it off, you get a AIR BLAST. You’ve dusted the top. Now, put 10 sticks on the rock; cover the powder with 5 or 10 gallons of mud. BOOM! you’ve split the rock. In 1/1,000-second, perhaps much less, the dynamite hits the mud much as a human jumps off a 200 foot bridge smacks water----for an instant, the liquid behaves as a solid. In the law of hydraulics, liquids don’t compress. An infinitesimal resistance to the dynamite confused it long enough to increase shock on the rock. The T/C Contender is an excellent gun for attaching a pressure sensor. The topstrap of a revolver or the slide of an automatic are not convenient mechanisms for glueing a sensor to the chamber. David Bradshaw
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