mbruce
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Posts: 15
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Post by mbruce on May 25, 2020 13:54:43 GMT -5
This post is a follow-up to Bradshaw's post here: singleactions.proboards.com/post/347405/threadWhat attributes are required for a semi-auto to be accurate...or which attributes increase/degrade semi-auto accuracy? Sig/HK/CZ carries the reputation as being accurate service-pistols. What characteristics give them superb accuracy, over other brands? I believe the Beretta M9 is regarded as accurate, too. Glock doesn't pretend to be ultra-accurate as they disclose their accuracy standard of 8" @ 25 yards. This came to light because now we have numerous superbly accurate pistols being classified as service-pistols, aka combat pistols. Nearly all high-end 1911 brands make a carry 9mm. So now I'm curious what do they do to make their pistols superbly accurate. Out of ignorance I've bypassed the higher-end carry guns thinking they lacked reliability. I'm told that's false, so now of course I want a higher-end carry gun. Thank you
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Post by zeus on May 25, 2020 15:41:18 GMT -5
on a 1911, the barrel lugs and the barrel bushing fit are pretty important. it should lock up the same each shot etc. I would say that lock up is across the board on the semis pretty important. Even some non 1911 semi auto guns like the HK versions utilize unique options to maintain that barrel lock up consistency. On my MK23, they use an O-ring system. For a large 45 semi, that gun is fun to shoot because it is so accurate. I've shot some pretty crazy groups with that gun over the years. They also use the O-ring system on a few of the normal size semi autos they build as well. Barrel quality and trigger pull as well to me. But remember, the parts are just that, parts. It takes skilled hands to make them into a precision weapon. I could take the same parts as Les Baer or Wilson and make it fire of course. But I'd be willing to be their versions will outshoot mine and feel better too A lot of the upper end 1911 smiths also make most of their parts in house. So in the end, they have total control of the dimensions and quality control. Wilson makes most everything on their pistols including the barrels in house. That control will also help with the final product of course with all the parts being consistent from the CNC that they operate. The other end of that is someone like Jason Burton at Heirloom Precision that takes a Colt and welds up the rails and hand files everything to be perfectly square on the frame sides, rails, etc. I have one of his guns and it is absolute perfection. I truly have tried to find a flaw and can't. BUT...with that time invested comes a price tag to match of course. All the upper end 1911s shoot well. LBC, Wilson, Nighthawk, Rock River, etc. The Dan Wesson to me is the sleeper. They are priced lower than the big names mentioned but I have found them to be fitted extremely well and better than some. On my personal guns, I will say that parts of the DW are fit as well as or better than some of the popular semi custom guns. I think that the DW guns are a true bargain. They have never bobbled at the range and accuracy is exceptional. But go and feel as many as you can. A Les Baer gun feels different than say a Wilson. The grip frame of a LBC gun is slightly longer front to back than a typical 1911. It gives a unique feel. The Wilson is also cut with a little more undercut on the trigger guard area. I have been please with all of my Wilson examples.So I would definitley look at ones from everyone that you can before making the decision. Unless something has changed, LBC uses Kart barrels in all of his builds. Wilson does not and most of the others don't unless its a full house custom build or requested when you order from someone like Rock River Arms NOT ROCK ISLAND (never had one so I can't say how they are but RRA is not RIA ) All of them are great guns that will not let you down so its going to come down to personal preference. Give the Rock River guns a look. You can order them with a choice of checkering on the front strap, 20/25/30 lpi, there are different sight options, on my most recent, I chose the Heinie version rather than the RRA version. They also used a Kart barrel and bushing versus their in house choice. Prices on these guns are really reasonable for the quality of the gun you receive. I'd say they are priced between a DW and a LBC roughly and well below a new Wilson. If I were ordering a new one tomorrow, I'd buy another RRA rather than some of the others I have. If you are in the KC area, you are welcome to look over any that I have and see the differences. As far as a carry gun, I have found that if I carry a 1911, I tend to grab the Wilson 5" Ultralight Carry more often than not. great balancing and shooting gun.
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Post by bradshaw on May 25, 2020 18:13:49 GMT -5
Good to hear, Glenn, as the Rock River was slick and so easy to shoot well. Good news to hear they’re back in the pipeline with the old quality. And, yes, it was built with a Kart barrel. I’ve shot some other good barrels, and some good barrels poorly fitted on “customs.” Bought, as a young teenager, a WW I Colt 1911, with lanyard loop mainspring housing, and lanyard loop magazine. You could not stop that gun, but I never tried anything but the plentiful, cheap GI hardball John Browning designed the gun around. Shot without a hitch quantities of 1943 steel case, which appeared to be zinked. Trying it on an NRA bullseye @ 50 yards, pocket pool offhand, quickly revealed the meaning of “shoots rings around the target.” Who knows how many times that pistol was issued and what it had been through. Couldn’t stop it. David Bradshaw
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mbruce
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Posts: 15
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Post by mbruce on May 25, 2020 20:30:46 GMT -5
If you are in the KC area, you are welcome to look over any that I have and see the differences. Thank you very much for sharing that information. That kind of information is hard to come by these days. Accuracy enhancing attributes of a service-pistol aren't generally discussed in forums....I assume because it's not widely known or understood. It might be worth a trip to KC just to see your collection. I used to live 30 miles from the Bud's Gun Shop in TN. I can kick myself over not going there more often and comparing their 1911 offerings. They have displays of LBC, Wilson, Nighthawk, DW, Cabot, the list goes on... I like sleeper values like Rock River and DW. They'll go well with my CZ sleepers. Again, thank you.
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Post by zeus on May 25, 2020 21:53:07 GMT -5
If you are in the KC area, you are welcome to look over any that I have and see the differences. Thank you very much for sharing that information. That kind of information is hard to come by these days. Accuracy enhancing attributes of a service-pistol aren't generally discussed in forums....I assume because it's not widely known or understood. It might be worth a trip to KC just to see your collection. I used to live 30 miles from the Bud's Gun Shop in TN. I can kick myself over not going there more often and comparing their 1911 offerings. They have displays of LBC, Wilson, Nighthawk, DW, Cabot, the list goes on... I like sleeper values like Rock River and DW. They'll go well with my CZ sleepers. Again, thank you. My 1911 collection probably isn’t worth much of a drive but I’ve been lucky enough to gather a few over the years that I like. The DW is a fine handgun. I carry a Guardian a lot as well. 4.25” slide with no tailed aluminum frame in 38 Super. Offhand groups at 25 yds are pretty impressive as long as I don’t overthink it. I use one of Barranti’s rigs for that one. He made me a couple for that size and a G19 for OWB but hold really close and tight. You forget it’s there. The Valkyrie from DW is slick. I have a commander in 9mm in that gun. Such a smooth shooter! But the RRA will feed empty cases like butter as David mentioned earlier. They built my last one with no markings on the slide and put all the markings on the bottom so they are like a billboard on your gun. How cool is that when a builder will honor such a goofy request. But it makes for a super clean looking gun. I opted for a parkerized finish so it isn’t fancy looking. But for a carry gun, should be incredible. I’ll try and find some pics of them and see what I have.
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Post by zeus on May 25, 2020 21:56:22 GMT -5
Good to hear, Glenn, as the Rock River was slick and so easy to shoot well. Good news to hear they’re back in the pipeline with the old quality. And, yes, it was built with a Kart barrel. I’ve shot some other good barrels, and some good barrels poorly fitted on “customs.” Bought, as a young teenager, a WW I Colt 1911, with lanyard loop mainspring housing, and lanyard loop magazine. You could not stop that gun, but I never tried anything but the plentiful, cheap GI hardball John Browning designed the gun around. Shot without a hitch quantities of 1943 steel case, which appeared to be zinked. Trying it on an NRA bullseye @ 50 yards, pocket pool offhand, quickly revealed the meaning of “shoots rings around the target.” Who knows how many times that pistol was issued and what it had been through. Couldn’t stop it. David Bradshaw I remember looking over the early guns in Walter Birdsongs office. He was my neighbor in MS. About the time I wanted to order one they quit making them. Was pretty disappointed. Walter was extremely impressed with the Springfield Pro and the RRA. I think he was more impressed with another guy but I can’t remember his name to save my life right now that was in the running for the FBI contract. But the stipulations they put on maintenance and such put him out being a small one man shop type deal. So when they opened up for orders again, I made sure I got in. I don’t rush them and they fill my orders when they have time and have a frame/slide done with my options. But the work is as good or better than it was 15 years ago.
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Post by zeus on May 25, 2020 22:37:14 GMT -5
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Post by Rimfire69 on May 26, 2020 6:59:54 GMT -5
Wow, that Burton Heirloom really stands out.
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mbruce
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Posts: 15
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Post by mbruce on May 26, 2020 20:58:46 GMT -5
Thank you for posting.
The RRA looks clean for sure. The DW, too.
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Post by zeus on May 26, 2020 21:13:04 GMT -5
Wow, that Burton Heirloom really stands out. Yes it does. The grip screws are timed and numbered even and odd so you know where they go when you have them out. The details of that one can be lost if you don’t know what your looking for. To see before and after pics of Jason’s work are really cool when you can see the frame detailing he does. He told me one time he has between 120-160 hours in each gun. His work like other custom smiths isn’t cheap or quick but it’s pretty amazing to see the end result.
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mbruce
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Posts: 15
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Post by mbruce on May 27, 2020 6:03:58 GMT -5
Is the .38 Super worth messing with? I'm leaning towards a DW Guardian.
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Post by AxeHandle on May 27, 2020 7:29:58 GMT -5
Traded for a Pachmayr Combat Special in the late 70s. This one was based on a Colt Combat Commander. I remember the tightness and slickness being something special. Still have the build sheet somewhere. It details how they would take the barrel out of your gun and place it in their test fixture before they would even start to use it to build a gun. Didn't have all these hotdawg cameras back then but I was holding a set of government issue AFPG bullseye guns (the best on the planet) at the time. The Pachmayr gun wasn't a bullseye gun but it was definitely something special.
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Post by zeus on May 27, 2020 7:46:56 GMT -5
I think they make the guardian still in 9, 45 and 38S. I really enjoy the Super. I carry ammo in it from Underwood. Pushes the 124 gold dot a shade over 1350. More accurate than I can hold.
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mbruce
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 15
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Post by mbruce on May 27, 2020 8:05:06 GMT -5
I think they make the guardian still in 9, 45 and 38S. I really enjoy the Super. I carry ammo in it from Underwood. Pushes the 124 gold dot a shade over 1350. More accurate than I can hold. Your DW Guardian is a .38 Super? I don't have a .38 Super so the uniqueness to me is fun. I saw where Underwood has .38 Super ammo in stock. It seems they are the only --or of the few --that sells .38 Super SD ammo. I can always reload, but sometimes the easy button is nice. Thank you
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Post by zeus on May 27, 2020 8:23:35 GMT -5
Yes, my guardian is in 38S. Nice to carry. Not heavy, carries about 11 rounds loaded and never hiccups. Can’t ask for much more than that
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