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Post by bradshaw on May 14, 2020 10:12:35 GMT -5
The only difference between shooting from a rest----artificial or anatomical----and offhand is.... in offhand the GUN NEVER STOPS MOVING.
Tp grip the revolver with consistent relaxed pressure is the same for all positions. Heavier recoil mandates an increase in grip pressure, which is applied within the limitations of repeatability. For all their difference, silhouette and hunting keep powerful similarities. FOLLOW THROUGH is the sharpshooter’s ticket to hits. A sharpshooter does not fight the gun. NERVE PRESSURE comes in unpredictable variety, which is best controlled through deep breathing. To shoot on a range with steep uphill or downhill, position and stance must adjust: grip pressure continues even, sighting continues even, squeeze continues even, and follow thriough continues even.
As a rule, light conditions have greater say in POI than shooting position. David Bradshaw
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Post by whitworth on May 14, 2020 10:19:44 GMT -5
In my experience there is no difference. One must always maintain a consistent grip tension and the POI should be the same irrespective of the rest. I respectfully disagree. If you would, please shoot us some groups with just the butt of the gun rested, the frame of the gun rested, and the end of the barrel rested, and report back. I think you'll find at least 2 very different groups. You are entitled to your opinion, but most of us sight-in off of the bench, correct? Then we go afield (I’m assuming we’re hunters) and expect said firearm to shoot to the sights irrespective of the type of rest encountered or offhand as is often the case in my experience. I don’t find any differences in my POI because my grip tension is consistent.
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Post by willicd on May 14, 2020 10:20:02 GMT -5
I come from the world of precision benchrest and long range rifles. Maybe there is simply not enough accuracy in these revolvers for most people to see a difference even though it's there.
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Post by willicd on May 14, 2020 10:22:17 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree. If you would, please shoot us some groups with just the butt of the gun rested, the frame of the gun rested, and the end of the barrel rested, and report back. I think you'll find at least 2 very different groups. You are entitled to your opinion, but most of us sight-in off of the bench, correct? Then we go afield (I’m assuming we’re hunters) and expect said firearm to shoot to the sights irrespective of the type of rest encountered or offhand as is often the case in my experience. I don’t find any differences in my POI because my grip tension is consistent. Max, I believe you have lost sight of the original question. "Does it make a difference if you rest on the frame versus resting on the barrel". It does. If we can't duplicate our bencrest accuracy from ALL field positions (we can't), how do we know?
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Post by whitworth on May 14, 2020 10:29:11 GMT -5
You are entitled to your opinion, but most of us sight-in off of the bench, correct? Then we go afield (I’m assuming we’re hunters) and expect said firearm to shoot to the sights irrespective of the type of rest encountered or offhand as is often the case in my experience. I don’t find any differences in my POI because my grip tension is consistent. Max, I believe you have lost sight of the original question. "Does it make a difference if you rest on the frame versus resting on the barrel". It does. If we can't duplicate our bencrest accuracy from ALL field positions (we can't), how do we know? It doesn’t in my experience. I have shot thousands of rounds off the bench for accuracy and the barrel or frame touching the rest makes no difference in my experience. Again, grip tension is the root of all evil here, particularly without the benefit of a shoulder to snug the stock against. I take handgun accuracy very seriously.
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Post by willicd on May 14, 2020 10:33:16 GMT -5
Cool 👍🏼
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Post by squigz on May 14, 2020 10:42:20 GMT -5
You are entitled to your opinion, but most of us sight-in off of the bench, correct? Then we go afield (I’m assuming we’re hunters) and expect said firearm to shoot to the sights irrespective of the type of rest encountered or offhand as is often the case in my experience. I don’t find any differences in my POI because my grip tension is consistent. Max, I believe you have lost sight of the original question. "Does it make a difference if you rest on the frame versus resting on the barrel". It does. If we can't duplicate our bencrest accuracy from ALL field positions (we can't), how do we know? I'm not entirely entitled to much of an opinion as most on the forum as I don't have as much experience and knowledge. For revolvers that I've shot I've tested this to see if there really was a difference as this came into question between my father and I one day. With my guns ranging from 4 5/8" to 8 3/8" barrels, I did not see a difference in accuracy at any point when I rested the barrel of the gun in the bag, or if I only rest the frame on a bag with some extra cover to help with the side blast from firing. This by no means carried any scientific research or any other variables, it was simply shooting at a target at 25 yards. The "test", if you'd like to call it that, was carried out with the following guns and there was no difference in group sizes to be found. On some shots I even put forward weight on the barrrel to where it effect POI, but the groups did not change for what the load normally shot without the extra pressures. If the gun laid in the rest with normal grip strength and consistency, nothing changed from resting position to resting position. This was done with open sights and with various optics. BFR 500JRH - 5.5" - Ultradot 30 Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley - 480 Ruger 6.5" Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter Bisley - 45 Colt 7.5" - 2x weaver scope S&W 29-2 44 magnum - 8 3/8" S&W 57 41 magnum - 8 3/8" Ruger Blackhawk - 41 magnum 6.5" - 2-7x Burris Dan Wesson 15-2 - 357 magnum 8" Ruger Security Six - 357 magnum 6" Ruger Super Single Six - 32 H&R 4 5/8" Now, to add. We also did this with some rifles at 100 yards, and we DID see difference in accuracy. We knew it would happen, but after seeing the results of the pistols, we needed to just test for our own eyes because at the time we both believed that the barrel on the bag would cause accuracy issues for a revolver like a rifle, but it did not.
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Post by bobwright on May 14, 2020 10:50:40 GMT -5
This brought s smile to my face, when contender said:
Bob Wright
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Post by potatojudge on May 14, 2020 11:00:19 GMT -5
I come from the world of precision benchrest and long range rifles. Maybe there is simply not enough accuracy in these revolvers for most people to see a difference even though it's there. First thing you need to do is change your mentality from that of a bench rest shooter. You're not gonna learn how to drive a Model T by telling us how your BMW drives. These are different disciplines requiring different skills and knowledge. The guns are so different it's hard to translate many of the lessons of one sport to the other. There are plenty of folks here who can print small enough groups to tell a difference in hold. The biggest factor you'll find is that any stable position will give better groups. I believe you found this shooting with the tip of your barrel on the rest, not so much in the barrel pressure being the determining factor, but the stability dictating your reduction in group size. These short, stiff barrels flex as does the whole gun but it's not harmonics like you think of in rifles. Small SD implies similar barrel travel time and release from the muzzle, but we're not dealing with 2+ feet of steel whipping around and trying to time bullet release to a particular part of barrel movement. Lots of short barreled guns (revolvers, Contenders, etc) will give phenomenal accuracy with barrel mounted sling studs and bipods attached to the barrel or attached to forends screwed into the barrel. Scopes are mounted to the barrels with no degradation in accuracy. Change how you think of the gun working- these are not rifles. If you're dead set on testing, and I'd encourage you test for yourself rather than assign what you want to learn as homework to others, here is how you'd do it: Set up your revolver in a Ransom Rest. Use frame mounted optics and a rifle scope with enough magnification that the sights are not a factor. Shoot groups with a proven accurate load. Repeat with upward pressure on the frame. Repeat again with upward pressure at different points on the barrel. The pressure you apply should be equal to the pressure the bag would exert on the gun, so put a scale under your bag and gun, zero it, and read the difference once you're in final shooting position. We're not mashing our guns into the bags. Then use that data to find bench and field positions that give you the best stability and confidence in your shots. If you're a BR shooter through and through and that's what you're comfortable with, maybe an XP-100 is a better choice for your precision hand gunning work. There are guys who essentially shoot bench rest with the XP and even their guns are plenty different, despite using the exact action that some BR guys (used to) use.
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Post by bradshaw on May 14, 2020 11:30:14 GMT -5
I come from the world of precision benchrest and long range rifles. Maybe there is simply not enough accuracy in these revolvers for most people to see a difference even though it's there. ***** Bench Rest competitors of my acquaintance carry deep respect for high class revolver work. These shooters reach back to include Bench Rest Hall of Fame’s Jim Stekl. While I won’t pretend to speak for Max Prasac, I understand exactly what’s he’s saying. My sight picture may shift for LIGHT, WIND, and DISTANCE. My sight picture remains same from one shooting position to another. There was a time no one believed a revolver could be shot Creedmoor. After shredding various materials, I proposed a Kevlar Blast Shield to fellow IHMSA All-American Jerry Moran. Moran took the idea to Richard Davis of Second Chance Body Armor; thus, the Kevlar blast shield. All the while I tangled with the question of.... does SIDEBLAST cause horizontal POI shift? Answer: A proper, gravitational Creedmoor position has no adverse effect of Point of Impact. Generally, the trigger is the only part of a gun touched to fire. The High Power Rifle shooter gets strapped in tight for prone, sitting, and kneeling. Nor is offhand a loose affair: the ON-hand does 75% of the rifle-work screwing buttstock of an M-1 into the shoulder, while the OFF-hand supports forend. (Quite the opposite of a shotgun.) Revolver & load dictate grip pressure----or lack thereof----not shooting position. David Bradshaw
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Post by oddshooter on May 14, 2020 11:53:11 GMT -5
When I first came to this site, I wrote something about revolver harmonics with a rest and David was firm, but gentle, in my education.
Now for off topic, but it's probably time to take a break. Squiqz wrote:
BFR 500JRH - 5.5" - Ultradot 30 Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley - 480 Ruger 6.5" Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter Bisley - 45 Colt 7.5" - 2x weaver scope S&W 29-2 44 magnum - 8 3/8" S&W 57 41 magnum - 8 3/8" Ruger Blackhawk - 41 magnum 6.5" - 2-7x Burris Dan Wesson 15-2 - 357 magnum 8" Ruger Security Six - 357 magnum 6" Ruger Super Single Six - 32 H&R 4 5/8"
Did no one else notice that list ?
4 manufacturers, 7 calibers, 2 scoped.
The only consistency was the long barrels; which I dearly love. Variations and diversity are the altars at which I pray.
Prescut
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Post by willicd on May 14, 2020 12:28:47 GMT -5
I digress...
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Post by squigz on May 14, 2020 14:55:52 GMT -5
Did no one else notice that list ? 4 manufacturers, 7 calibers, 2 scoped. The only consistency was the long barrels; which I dearly love. Variations and diversity are the altars at which I pray. Prescut It's a problem I have, I like diversity too much. If I have the same caliber it has to be various barrel lengths or a different make/style. Never two of the same. I like all different calibers too, that's where I'm running into issues with contenders, I can't have the same caliber barrel right now, so I'm up to 6 (which is nothing to most, but it's collection to me). Reloading and stocking for over 40 different calibers (again maybe not a lot to most, but it is to me). It's nothing but playing around and having fun. That's where this barrel experiment that I came into last year with how I can get the best accuracy and how I should be resting the revolver in bags.
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Post by cas on May 14, 2020 17:59:10 GMT -5
In that fairly brief period when trying to shoot small 100 yards groups with a scoped revolver was my very serious thing, I found I could never shoot good groups letting the butt touch the bench. My best results came when jamming the font of the frame into a large, not fully stuffed sandbag that would wrap itself around the frame and cylinder. Of course I had to use a large THICK piece of skirt leather as well to keep from destroying the bags.
Resting the barrel never worked well. More likely the fact that is was much less steady for me than anything to do with harmonics.
When sighting in or adjusting for a new load, I shoot with my arms (elbows) resting in bags or my range bag, wrists hands, and gun "free" from contact with anything to get recoil and gun movement as close to offhand as possible.
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Post by Thunderjet on May 15, 2020 8:26:23 GMT -5
Resting the butt of a heavy recoiling revolver on something solid can get expensive. Back in my younger days in the 70's I cracked two sets of custom grips on my Ruger 44 mag. Once while resting on a rock when shooting at a deer and the other at the range with the butt resting on a wooden platform.
As far as resting the barrel. It could make sense that resting the barrel doesn't cause much, if any noticeable change of POI. Simple reason is a 4-6 inch barrel doesn't have anywhere near the flex that a rifle barrel would. Plus handguns are usually sighted in for much shorter distances than rifles.
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