petep
.30 Stingray
Central Alabama
Posts: 453
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Post by petep on May 2, 2020 8:09:24 GMT -5
I have a .22 LR Charter snub that has a problem with the cylinder stop timing.About 95% of the time after the first double action shot, the cylinder stop pops up very early tying the revolver up.It does fine firing single action.Anyone familiar with the inside of these revolvers and can suggest a way to change the cylinder stop timing?
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,573
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Post by jeffh on May 2, 2020 14:24:37 GMT -5
I am familiar with the insides of Charter revolvers and have had many over the years. With the old ones, new or "different" parts was commonly the easy answer in lieu "tuning" a part. On the current production guns, I think a trip back to the factory to let them guess how to fix it would be best. Yes, I said "guess." I've sent one back recently.
The cylinder stop on these guns is released pretty early after being pulled out of the cylinder notches to begin with. The "ring" on the ylinder on some older guns looks like it goes 360 degrees without even a small patch of blue left right after the cylinder notches.
Your cylinder stop may be balky just because it's nasty or has a burr - best case. The "tooth" on the cylinder stop, or the "sear" on the FRONT of the trigger which catches the stop and pulls it down could be worn, have gunk in them or not machined right to begin with. There is an oblong hole in the cylinder stop that allows the stop to slide fore/aft on its pivot point to accommodate clearance needed to "let go" from the trigger and stay out of its way momentarily. If there is crap in the front of the hole, it will not allow a positive interface with the front of the trigger and it and the trigger can jamb up against one another and stop everything until you let go. If that hole is too big (long) or too small (short), it will be problematic and I don't know what the exact size should be honestly.
I have a current production 3" Stainless Mag Pug in 357 Mag. Mine has some timing issues as well and I don't think anyone at the factory understands how to fix them any more. It's been back once already and they fixed one problem and created another at the same time, did a "poor-boy's trigger job" (cringe) which failed to correct another problem and then completely ignored the timing problems.
I'd have to handle your gun to really get any idea, but what you want to watch is the cylinder stop and how it interacts with the trigger, while also watching the pawl. You can't SEE the pawl while working the gun, but you can see the cylinder move. You can override the cylinder latch with the cylinder open, but the stop will work ONCE that way and needs the cylinder touching it to get it to reset properly.
This is one of two timing issues mine has - the pawl is too long. Just today, I removed about .005" (the length of a burr which had developed at the tip, to try to get the cylinder stop to drop BEFORE the cylinder starts turning. 100%of the time, the pawl is already pushing the cylinder against the cylinder stop (DA or SA), causing excess wear, undue force required to cock the gun and will "throw" the shot in DA IF it doesn't just lock up.
Intermittently, the cylinder stop does not interface (reset)with the trigger correctly and retards/prevents the dropping of the cylinder stop (while the pawl is trying even harder to move the cylinder) and once the trigger and cylinder stop interact, it FLINGS the cylinder to the next battery position. Very difficult to shoot DA like this when three shots clump together and two more are 8" to the right at only 20'. Shortening the pawl isn't a huge deal, but you have to take the trigger out and they're not exactly fun to put back in - but I've got some practice, know a few tips and how to hold my mouth. Still not fun.
The cylinder stop is another story. The spring and plunger which hold the stop into the cylinder notch are not at an ideal angle and the surfaces of the plunger and stop are not an ideal match either. The "sear" for the cylinder stop, on the front of the trigger is not well-defined, and the cylinder stop is not terribly precise either. There is an oblong hole in the stop (like some Smiths I've seen) which is possibly too long, but the details on these parts are so amorphous that it's hard to tell what things SHOULD look like. Normally, that would be OK, but I think someone forgot the tolerances from the old days and the interface between the two parts is "iffy" at best.
I get at least two of these problems with each cylinder-full of five rounds: the cylinder-fling, cylinder tied up because the stop can't let go because the pawl is binding the cylinder against it, complete lockup of the two parts because the trigger and stop jamb up against one another. It is also VERY easy to "short-stroke" this one, like the trigger return spring is too light. Frustrating combination to say the least.
The overall design of Charter revolvers is GOOD. Much of it came from High Standard, and Ruger apparently thought well of those features too.
I'm just not feeling warm and fuzzy about the execution of that design currently. Longer story there.
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petep
.30 Stingray
Central Alabama
Posts: 453
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Post by petep on May 2, 2020 14:59:11 GMT -5
Thank you very much! The problem with this revolver is that the hand does not begin cylinder rotation until the stop has already engaged the cylinder(hand too short??).I have been in this revolver once and do not relish taking it apart again!!I guess it just became a single action!
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,573
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Post by jeffh on May 2, 2020 16:16:53 GMT -5
...............I guess it just became a single action!
Now, that's funny.
I don't dread getting into one quite that bad, but this last one has me about there.
If you change your mind, I may have a couple ideas that will make it a little less aggravating.
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petep
.30 Stingray
Central Alabama
Posts: 453
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Post by petep on May 2, 2020 17:56:48 GMT -5
OK ,if you give me your ideas and I can get in the mood I will see if I can fix it! Thank you very much for your help.
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Post by bradshaw on May 2, 2020 19:21:00 GMT -5
I am familiar with the insides of Charter revolvers and have had many over the years. With the old ones, new or "different" parts was commonly the easy answer in lieu "tuning" a part. On the current production guns, I think a trip back to the factory to let them guess how to fix it would be best. Yes, I said "guess." I've sent one back recently. The cylinder stop on these guns is released pretty early after being pulled out of the cylinder notches to begin with. The "ring" on the ylinder on some older guns looks like it goes 360 degrees without even a small patch of blue left right after the cylinder notches. Your cylinder stop may be balky just because it's nasty or has a burr - best case. The "tooth" on the cylinder stop, or the "sear" on the FRONT of the trigger which catches the stop and pulls it down could be worn, have gunk in them or not machined right to begin with. There is an oblong hole in the cylinder stop that allows the stop to slide fore/aft on its pivot point to accommodate clearance needed to "let go" from the trigger and stay out of its way momentarily. If there is crap in the front of the hole, it will not allow a positive interface with the front of the trigger and it and the trigger can jamb up against one another and stop everything until you let go. If that hole is too big (long) or too small (short), it will be problematic and I don't know what the exact size should be honestly. I have a current production 3" Stainless Mag Pug in 357 Mag. Mine has some timing issues as well and I don't think anyone at the factory understands how to fix them any more. It's been back once already and they fixed one problem and created another at the same time, did a "poor-boy's trigger job" (cringe) which failed to correct another problem and then completely ignored the timing problems. I'd have to handle your gun to really get any idea, but what you want to watch is the cylinder stop and how it interacts with the trigger, while also watching the pawl. You can't SEE the pawl while working the gun, but you can see the cylinder move. You can override the cylinder latch with the cylinder open, but the stop will work ONCE that way and needs the cylinder touching it to get it to reset properly. This is one of two timing issues mine has - the pawl is too long. Just today, I removed about .005" (the length of a burr which had developed at the tip, to try to get the cylinder stop to drop BEFORE the cylinder starts turning. 100%of the time, the pawl is already pushing the cylinder against the cylinder stop (DA or SA), causing excess wear, undue force required to cock the gun and will "throw" the shot in DA IF it doesn't just lock up. Intermittently, the cylinder stop does not interface (reset)with the trigger correctly and retards/prevents the dropping of the cylinder stop (while the pawl is trying even harder to move the cylinder) and once the trigger and cylinder stop interact, it FLINGS the cylinder to the next battery position. Very difficult to shoot DA like this when three shots clump together and two more are 8" to the right at only 20'. Shortening the pawl isn't a huge deal, but you have to take the trigger out and they're not exactly fun to put back in - but I've got some practice, know a few tips and how to hold my mouth. Still not fun. The cylinder stop is another story. The spring and plunger which hold the stop into the cylinder notch are not at an ideal angle and the surfaces of the plunger and stop are not an ideal match either. The "sear" for the cylinder stop, on the front of the trigger is not well-defined, and the cylinder stop is not terribly precise either. There is an oblong hole in the stop (like some Smiths I've seen) which is possibly too long, but the details on these parts are so amorphous that it's hard to tell what things SHOULD look like. Normally, that would be OK, but I think someone forgot the tolerances from the old days and the interface between the two parts is "iffy" at best. I get at least two of these problems with each cylinder-full of five rounds: the cylinder-fling, cylinder tied up because the stop can't let go because the pawl is binding the cylinder against it, complete lockup of the two parts because the trigger and stop jamb up against one another. It is also VERY easy to "short-stroke" this one, like the trigger return spring is too light. Frustrating combination to say the least. The overall design of Charter revolvers is GOOD. Much of it came from High Standard, and Ruger apparently thought well of those features too. I'm just not feeling warm and fuzzy about the execution of that design currently. Longer story there. ***** Jeff.... thank you for the fine, articulate, agonizing dis-crypt-shun of the chitlins inside a Charter Arms. An old partner on dynamite jobs, Master Blaster Don Mathieu, killed by too much nitro in his blood, carried at all times a Charter Arms snub nose .38 thrust in a tool pocket alongside the leg of his bib overalls. I never saw that gun anything but work, and that little five shot lived a life of filth, the commute between cow manure and rock dust. I don’t know diddly inside a Charter Arms and your experience encourages my oblivion. As for the oblong pivot hole in the CYLINDER STOP (a.k.a. bolt), this is a standard feature of Smith & Wesson and Ruger double actions. It allows the trigger to reset without disengaging the stop. A critical part of timing in the double action. As you observe, Wear or sloppy fit may cause the the stop to “drop-n-pop” at the first touch of the trigger, locking the cylinder as the pawl attempts rotation. If you fear factory service, have em send a bunch of parts.... pretend all you have ia anvil, a hammer, and a file.... David Bradshaw
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,573
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Post by jeffh on May 3, 2020 10:00:41 GMT -5
***** Jeff.... thank you for the fine, articulate, agonizing dis-crypt-shun of the chitlins inside a Charter Arms. ................ David Bradshaw That is a high compliment, sir and I thank you. It's funny because I have spent considerable time here because of your Ruger history and what makes them "tick." It seems we're in an age where style of the aesthetic has come to prevail over the substance of mechanics. Gun makers do continue to innovate, but I think we are becoming less familiar with what goes on inside them. Like our cars. I don't even want to know what's inside some of these plastic pistols (even though some work amazingly well) and I even have a plastic revolver I'd be hesitant to open up.
A lot of people have viewed CA this way for a long time - no one was interested in looking inside. They use a LOT of old-timey technology, as revolvers go, but took advantage of simplification and exploited (then) modern production means - like Savage bolt-action rifles. They weren't even the first at that either.
For record, I am not an "expert" on these guns and my education on them is far from complete. Part of that is because I'm no flaming genius , but also because I've rarely had to actually work on them - seriously. Until this last one I got, I've never sent an H&R or CA back to the factory, but I HAVE sent multiple Rugers and Smiths back. Not knocking those two, just being fair and honest.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,573
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Post by jeffh on May 3, 2020 10:02:15 GMT -5
OK ,if you give me your ideas and I can get in the mood I will see if I can fix it! Thank you very much for your help. More than happy to assist.
I'll sit down with this later this evening and lay a couple things out. If you're not taking the cylinder off the crane, the only annoying part is getting the trigger back in.
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petep
.30 Stingray
Central Alabama
Posts: 453
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Post by petep on May 3, 2020 10:38:30 GMT -5
I want you to know that I really appreciate your help and the time you are putting into this help!!!!! maybe I can get the revolver correct again.Thank you very much!
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,573
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Post by jeffh on May 3, 2020 12:11:38 GMT -5
I want you to know that I really appreciate your help and the time you are putting into this help!!!!! maybe I can get the revolver correct again.Thank you very much! Honestly NO problem. No promises either though. I can help you get it apart and back together but can't fix it from here.
I was going to start mowing two hours ago and the neighbor's wife caught up with me and added a to-do to my list today. Minutes after I hung up, her ward (hubby) shows up with reciprocity for the new task in the form of meat for the freezer. She knows how to take away excuses not to do something before he or I can even thinkn them up. Anyway, there went a few hours.
So, NOW, after laundry, mowing AND getting the poison ivy vines out of the grape arbor (the new task) I can get into my shop and tear mine apart again. I didn't take enough off the pawl ("hand" in CA terms) off and have to disassemble it again. Putting the trigger back in takes three hands, taking a photo of it takes another two, but I'm going to see if I can figure out a way to take a picture of the "trigger trick" for reassembly. It's not earth-shatteringly clever, but a photo is better than words.
Whatever happens along the way, I'm open to additional help, but I'm hoping you just have some gunk in there for now. What Mr. Bradshaw mentioned about the oblong hole in the cylinder stop (CA talk)/bolt (other manufactures' talk) could easily cause it to "drop" out of the notch, but fall right back in. That interface is critical. Mine is a limited "high-polish" version and I think someone buffed a bit too hard on the front of the trigger. Buffing wheels are not precision tools.
Meanwhile, if you start without me, when you remove the hammer strut/spring, make sure the strut is turned so that the hole for the disassembly pin (large paper-clip) is NOT perpendicular to the grip frame, but diagonal, so that you can JUST get the end of the paper clip in. The spring retainer is so small that there's very little real estate on the sides. When the paper clip goes in diagonally, it rests on a lot more of the little retainer plate and it won't slip out and cost you a coule hours with a magnet and a flashlight.
I AM such an EXPERT on recovering unintended projectile pieces of guns that my ears and brain can register, log and calculate the trajectories and vectors and times between initial and subsequent ricochets that I can track a part in time and space to with about one cubic foot of my shop. I can also distinguish between sounds of the part bouncing off wood, metal or concrete, in the order of their occurrence. I won't claim to be an "expert" on ANYTHING else, but I can find that little pin from the ejector assembly in pretty short order. Yet, not remember what I had for breakfast or whether I even liked it.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,573
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Post by jeffh on May 3, 2020 22:10:27 GMT -5
Taking a Charter revolver APART is pretty straightforward and intuitive: Obviously, make sure it’s unloaded and all ammo is OFF the bench.
What you’ll need: • Two screw-drivers or bits to fit the grip frame screw and cylinder crane screw • Two pin punches (cupped would be wonderful) – mine are .058” for the front pin and .089” for the other two pins. WHY, after more than 50 years they can’t make them all three the same is beyond me. • An old plastic-handled toothbrush – the plain ones you can’t find any more, or a stick of wood or plastic that fits between the sides of the frame. • A tapered slave pin would be nice, but I use the .098” punch • Magnifying glass • A GOOD light • A third hand – I use a small clamp-on bench vise • A big paper-clip • A THIN flat-blade screwdriver • Dental pick or tiny flat screwdriver • A mirror
When compressing and pinning the hammer spring/strut, use the tip of the paper clip to CAREFULLY rotate the strut so the paper clip goes in diagonally to the frame. The paper clip will have a much better purchase and is less likely to slip out. WARNING: Be careful not to twist the bottom of the spring/strut/seat assembly out of spring seat in the frame while rotating the assembly or the whole thing will go three separate ways.
Set that aside - the hammer strut/spring assembly and remove the hammer pivot screw. Tip the revolver upside down and pull the trigger back a little and the hammer will (should) fall out.
Remove the crane screw, swing the cylinder out and set aside. If you find a mangled little plastic washer, you can try to put it back in but I toss them. They just reduce wigglies when the cylinder is open and it doesn’t matter if the cylinder/crane wiggles a little when open.
There’s one screw holding the grip frame to the cylinder frame. Loosen it but leave it in for now.
There are TWO pins holding the grip frame to the cylinder frame – one in front of and one behind the trigger pivot pin. Leave the trigger pivot pin alone for now. If the trigger guard is slightly “sprung,” all three holes won’t line up perfectly, but it’s OK. You may or may not notice now, but will when you reassemble it.
Before trying to remove either of the grip-frame pins, get a magnifying glass and a good light to inspect both ends of the rear pin for splines. The front pin is splined on the LEFT. It HAS to be. That one that goes through the cylinder stop/bolt pin STUD (?), which is pressed into the frame on the RIGHT. The unsplined end of the front pin has to pass through the “stud” freely or it will punch the stud out of the frame.
The rear pin MUST be inspected. I had a current CA and an old Stratford CA on my bench today and both were different, in fact, the rear grip-frame pin on the old one had NO splines, but on the new one, the splines were originally on the RIGHT side. DO NOT TRUST THAT. Get the magnifying glass out.
Just to keep things straight, and not wear out splines or holes, after the initial disassembly, I put ALL splines on the LEFT when I put one back together. Since the spline on the pin in the cylinder stop/bolt stud HAS to go in from the left, it’s just easier to remember which end my splines are on.
NOTE: This same inspection must be done when removing the trigger pivot pin. I’ve seen the splines on either side.
Now that the grip frame pins are out, finish removing the grip-frame screw and set the grip frame, screw and two pins aside. CAs have TINY parts. Some type of container you can’t knock over is a good idea. They can also be magnetic (even the stainless) and attach themselves to a tool you pick up and let go and fly to the most difficult place in the shop from which to retrieve them.
Now the guts are visible and you can see what’s what. Not much in there and easy to figure out. If you hold the cylinder latch to the rear (you could also replace the cylinder/crane assembly if you want – skip the screw) you can pull the trigger and watch stuff work. If you so replace the cylinder, you can also watch the pawl (CA calls it a “hand”) do its job in concert with the cylinder stop, its plunger and spring, the trigger, transfer bar, etc. without holding the cylinder release back.
NOTE: If you do this without the cylinder, you will see that the cylinder stop will work the first time and not reset. Don’t panic. The cylinder surface (not IN a notch) pushes the cylinder stop back down a little to allow it to reset with the trigger. Watch how the “sear” in the front of the trigger snatches the “tooth” on the cylinder stop, drags it down and releases it when you pull the trigger. When you let go, the front of the trigger pushes back against the cylinder stop and that’s where the oblong hole come in – it allows the cylinder stop to be pushed back out of the way as the trigger returns to its rest position.
The cylinder stop plunger and spring have to push UP on the tail of the cylinder stop AND push FORWARD, so the interfacing surfaces of both parts are critical. They must be CLEAN, properly LUBRICATED, and free of excess wear or damage to work right. Take all of that stuff out after watching it for a while, clean it all really well, inspect for burrs, damage, etc. Remember, these are TINY parts. To disassemble the works, start with the trigger; using the larger punch and an appropriate backing, drive the pin out the CORRECT direction. You did remember to inspect for which end the splines are on, right? Push the punch all the way through and capture the pin and set it aside.
Before pulling that punch out, look at the trigger return spring. The “U” goes to the REAR and the BOW goes DOWN. The “U” rests on top of the leg of both the pawl and transfer bar. There is a bushing inside the coils of the trigger return spring. When you pull the punch out, all of those parts can spontaneously disassemble themselves, so with thumb and forefinger of the other hand, grasp the front/rear of the trigger, covering as much of those parts as you can and push DOWN while removing the punch. Set those parts aside.
Next, I’d put the frame in the vise at this point, upside down. Take the thin, flat screwdriver and, from the front of the frame, holding it almost horizontally, reach in and depress the plunger and spring and HOLD IT. This requires some nerve and steadiness, because I haven’t found a way to cover these parts - because you have to see them and need all three hands. While holding the plunger all the way down, push the cylinder stop up through the frame.
Using a dental pick or tiny flat screwdriver (remember, you’re still holding the plunger down) or tiny stiff wire, get under the cylinder stop and push it inward toward the center of the frame and off of the stud I pivots on. Be careful, because once it’s loose, if you slip off the plunder, it’s going to be a good hour finding it and the spring. Getting the cylinder stop to slide off the stud and not fall back down in its slot can be a little trying. Wait until you put it back on. There is probably a better way to do this, but I haven’t figured it out. Either that or someone at the factory is permanently disfigured from making faces while doing this.
Now that all the pieces are out, you can clean, inspect, decide if anything needs to be replaced, relube each of them. I tend to over-lube all these parts with a mystical grease my dad brought home from the tool-room thirty years ago. It’s absolutely amazing stuff, but I have no idea what it is. This over-abundance of lube helps hold things together as I reassemble them and I can “mop up” the excess once all the pins are back in place and I can breathe again.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,573
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Post by jeffh on May 3, 2020 22:13:46 GMT -5
I tried to attach some photos, but I get an error say it's unable to attache them. I'll have to poke around here and see if I can figure that one out. I don't have an image host - not since PB pulled a fast one on everyone.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,573
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Post by jeffh on May 3, 2020 22:14:10 GMT -5
Time to go back together.
Put the cylinder stop spring/plunger back in the hole and get the cylinder stop ready to go back in. It’s easiest to lay it into the upsided frame (back in the vise) by laying I in the bottom of the channel in the frame and tipping it up into place on the stud while holding the spring and plunger down with the thin screwdriver. Once it rolls up into position, the tooth of the stop should fall through its channel in the bottom of the frame as the oblong hole goes over the stud. This may take a few tries. You can’t really use forceps, because one side of them is too fat to fit between the par and the wall of the frame for it to get into a slot and over a stud at the same time. Don’t forget that the plunger is now slippery and freer-moving.
Once that’s in place, we can get to the single most annoying part of reassembling one of these little beasts – installing the trigger assembly into the frame.
Put all the trigger pieces back together as an assembly, pre-lubed. You want it to look like the photo, with the pawl and transfer bar sticking up. The wire-end of the trigger return spring needs to be sticking up as far as it will. Holding all the pieces together, and keeping the spring in that position is a bit of a challenge, so keep the dental pick or small screwdriver handy, because the spring is what will move easiest, and you can grab a tool and push DOWN on the BACK end of that spring to get the front to pop back up without letting go of the other stuff.
To get that collection of moving parts into the frame, put the revolver back in the vise, upside down. Grasp the assembly with thumb and forefinger on the sides to keep the pawl and transfer bar in place, as well as the trigger pivot pin bushing and slide all of it into the frame from the rear, so the sides of the frame capture those three parts. Grasp just the trigger front to back with thumb and forefinger of your strong hand and move the assembly down and forward until that little spring’s wire end contacts the back side of the vertical part of the frame.
From this point forward, this gets a bit trying. It usually takes me two or three tries, because the spring end will get away from me. Just back it up, push down on the back end of the spring to raise the front and go in again. The idea is to push the trigger forward into place with the little wire end of the trigger return spring up against the back of the inside of the frame – against the spring tension, and all you have to hold onto is the trigger itself. You need vice-grip fingers….. or an old toothbrush. Use your thumb and finger to keep the trigger pressed DOWN into the frame while using the handle of the toothbrush to push the trgger assembly FOREWARD to align the holes in the trigger with the holes in the frame.
It helps a BUNCH to have the punch inserted in one side of the frame, so once the trigger is in place, you can wiggle the punch through. A tapered punch is handy here. Once the holes are all lined up (or almost so) you can let go of the toothbrush handle to grab the punch. The spring is compressed and it’s easier to hold the trigger at that point. It also helps to make sure there is not burr on that end of the spring so it slides on the frames instead of digging in.
With the punch holding all that together, you can work the trigger and make sure everything works as you had expected before putting the pin back in. You can even install the cylinder without the crane screw and make sure that all works too. Once satisfied, you can wiggle the trigger pivot pin into the hole and push the punch out with it as you go.
From there, it’s easy. Replace the grip frame next. If the three holes in the trigger guard grip frame do not all align, put the screw in loosely, push the rear pin in but don’t set it and then “tweak” the trigger guard bow up or down to align the last hole. Set the pins and tighten the screw.
Install the hammer. When you put the hammer spring/strut back in, make sure the ball on the top of the strut is actually IN the socket on the bottom of the hammer. It’s a pain in the neck if you miss that and put it all back together thinking it will work and it doesn’t. Replace the cylinder/crane (and screw) and put the grips back on.
OH! I forgot the mirror! The mirror is so you can see exactly how you were holding you mouth when the trigger parts all lined up and the punch slid through all the holes.
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petep
.30 Stingray
Central Alabama
Posts: 453
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Post by petep on May 4, 2020 4:19:11 GMT -5
Well,all I know to say is thank you very much!! I will copy this to my hard drive and see what I can get done.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,573
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Post by jeffh on May 4, 2020 10:19:59 GMT -5
Well,all I know to say is thank you very much!! I will copy this to my hard drive and see what I can get done. My apologies for the rampant typos. Crunch-time - finals week, after cramming everything online for the last half of the semester....
If you get into trouble or have any questions, please hit me up here, via PM, e-mail....
If it helps, I can PM my number, but it would have to be after this week.
I'll try to get the photos up this evening. I think they help a lot. It appears they cannot be attached, or can only be included via image hosting service.
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