|
Post by bradshaw on Mar 26, 2020 20:17:36 GMT -5
Trapr.... might as well answer over here. During 1980, the winter of ’80-’81, Bill Ruger worked to put into production his Red Label over/under 20 gauge, and the Redhawk .44 Magnum. This, in Newport, New Hampshire. A 100 yard indoor range was demolished to make way for hammer forge barrel machines, which required islands of thick concrete, with moats of sand to isolate the surround shop from vibration. As Bill observed on more than one occasion, “It is one thing to make examples of a gun, another thing entirely to put a gun into production.”
And he was learning his own lesson over again with the Red Label. Ruger wanted a very tough, quality over/under shotgun to bear his name, well below the European prices. He though he had barrel regulation figured to where he could do it with fixtures; you just have to get the adjust the fixture. It wasn’t that simple. Instead of “solder and shoot,” it became solder, shoot, solder... Bill Ruger was making a double and finding it much more labor-intensive than anticipated. Meanwhile, the Redhawk struggled to become a real shooting machine out the gate. At the same time, the Blackhawk .357 Maximum was becoming a reality.
It is my barely literate opinion that to regulate two barrels to the same Point of Impact starts by making two identical barrels. And I should think specifications apply double to rifled barrels. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by x101airborne on Mar 27, 2020 6:01:55 GMT -5
It is my barely literate opinion that to regulate two barrels to the same Point of Impact starts by making the two identical barrels. And I should think specifications apply double to rifled barrels. David Bradshaw
This being the issue making double rifles so very expensive. I have only ever read books on the double rifle, but from what I did read (unsure whether the information was truly accurate or not), I hold drillings and double rifles in VERY high regard. One of my dream predator firearms would be a 257 Roberts over a 12 gauge choked optimal for #4 buckshot.
|
|
|
Post by bula on Mar 27, 2020 8:46:12 GMT -5
Twenty or more years ago, I showed a co-worker a picture of a double rifle. A black powder rifle in 45cal. His not at work passion was building muzzle loading rifles for competition. During his service years, Korea, he'd been a sniper. He was yanked form the line and flown to Camp Perry for comps with his service gear, just background on him. So anyways, He studies the pic, finds 2 barrels, works on the stock,etc. He "drafted" our engineering staff who came up with software to plan out the piece between the barrels to regulate at 75yds. Common distance for eastern woodlands shots. Guess he got lucky, only 2-3 efforts and he got it . Wonder where that rifle is ?
|
|
|
Post by bigbrowndog on Mar 27, 2020 9:09:21 GMT -5
This topic came up, because I recall seeing a short article on how to play with bullet weight, different powders, and velocity. In order to not necessarily regulate a double rifle but to determine what load was used to regulate it. I had thought David had posted something to that affect, but all I could find was his POI changes due to powders and velocity, which quite similar it is not exactly what I was looking for. His info will help but it’s more tuned to pistols, if anyone recalls seeing something regarding specifically double rifles please post it here or message me. I need to find out what load a specific rifle is regulated for, caliber is 9.3x74 and it was proofed pre-WW2.
Trapr
|
|
|
Post by bula on Mar 27, 2020 9:28:00 GMT -5
Aaahh, very specific need. Sorry, cannot help. LUCK !
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Mar 27, 2020 9:57:45 GMT -5
Of two barrels made to identical specifications, one may be more accurate, more consistent. High end riflemen and riflewomen learn this on the Firing Line. Occurs to me the question of regulating a double rifle may involve cartridge selection. Other that minimal shooting experience, I can only speculate on the challenge of regulating a double rifle. Serious shotgunners are demanding, so may though that a rifle poses the more astringent challenge may be incorrect.
This is where I’m going with CARTRIDGE SELECTION for a double rifle. around 1961, as High Power Rifle great Sam Burkhalter tuned an armorer-built Garand of mine, he tried to talk me into switching to the M-14. Like its daddy the John Garand M1 before it, the M14 went through a calving process to become fully operation, with a learning curve to its bedding demands to make it a super-shooter. At the time of its development, it was thought the M1 needed that long operating rod to prevent the rifle from self-destruction. Turns out the shorter gas system of the M14 is less sensitive and, despite the shorter operating rod, the rifle doesn’t beat itself to death. While the shorter gas system of the M14 was an advantage, its separate box magazine provides less bedding surface for the trigger assembly. As so on....
Just a bit of background....
Some cartridges possess great INTRINSIC ACCURACY, The .308 Winchester----7.62x52mm----is one of them. When I asked, “What is the difference between the .30-06 and .308?” "Take six of the same barrels,” says Burkhalter. “Chamber three in .30-06. Chamber three in .308. Of the three in .30-06, one will be match accurate. Of the three in .308, three will be match accurate.”
Which leads me to suspect that, from ease-of-regulation, some cartridges may be less troublesome than other for making a double rifle. (Keeping out of the discussion the lower pressure rounds used in a traditional double.)
The job of a double rifle is protection against dangerous game, providing two instant shots without working the action. Doubles are higher maintenance and much weaker than a bolt. A lower pressure cartridge tends to be less sensitive to bedding, which presumably includes regulation. Today, the double rifle is a romance, covered in the moss of servants bringing tea and the slaughter of African game. In our shifting landscape, the scope has pushed animals farther from the gun, just as the gun pushed game farther from the bow. So the same might be said of the revolver, that it is a hopeless tool in game fields dominated by rifles.
Which brings us full circle to our individual Lusts & Loves. Hell, I see a sixgun pushing my coffee aside, “Take me out to squeeze a few rounds....”
Reckon the same would apply to a good double. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by bula on Mar 27, 2020 10:14:17 GMT -5
"Lusts and Loves". An amazing sentiment. So well put. Thank You. Am happy to pack something with a cylinder, for my own well being. With my wife along, the setting urban..things change per training.
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Mar 27, 2020 12:38:31 GMT -5
Just looked up Vintage Gun Journal for a peripheral view. States on average, a double requires 60 rounds of the same ammunition to regulate. Regulation is done at the range, replete with clamps, wedges, soldering gear, torch, et cetera.
Short of surgery, I would target @ 25, 40, 50, 60, 70 yards to find distance at which barrels group closest. From there, cocktail loads, probably with medium burn rate stick powders----IMR/H4895 and IMR 4064 come to mind. Range work would not start until calls to Hodgdon and Nosler, to name two. Vihtavuori may be a source. With an email to English and European gun makers: H&H, Purdey, Chapuis, Heym, to name a couple. Some of the long, tapering English rounds started with Cordite; I don’t know how to translate spaghetti to stick powder. I would look into it.
I would ask the PRESSURE QUESTION to all technical information sources.
Once the apparent ZERO distance is known, I would work of load adjustment for windage & elevation. I should hope the sights are adjustable. I much prefer to bring the sights to the load, not make the load bend to the sights. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by magnumwheelman on Mar 27, 2020 12:59:01 GMT -5
That Remington 45-70 double had a jack screw midway between the barrels and the barrels were fixed at both the muzzle and the breech... adjusting the screw was supposed to adjust the regulation
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Mar 27, 2020 13:52:42 GMT -5
Ruger proved the strength of the Red Label 20 gauge by making one in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, Blew out the firing pins. Put in bushed firing pins and the gun held. I have no idea whether the barrels were regulated. Also, Ruger made Red Label 20 gauge with paper-thin barrels. Strictly for trap loads only. Bill Ruger, Jr., and I shot bats as they exited the chimney just after dark to hunt mosquitos. Bats are warmed-blooded UFOs and one of the all-time great mosquito controls; unfortunately highly stressed. Today I would not harm a bat: go eat mosquitos!. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by bigbrowndog on Mar 27, 2020 15:17:41 GMT -5
David, I came very close to buying a Red Label converted to 375HH, it was done by Searcy and proved to be very durable and capable. My query is aimed at trying to determine what load was used to regulate the barrels, not really how to regulate a double rifle. So the hard part is done, I just need to figure out what load the gun shoots to it’s sights and alignment. Your POI notes regarding powder burn rates, bullet weights and velocities will come into play. I’ve contacted what I determine to be the David Bradshaw equivalent for double rifles, I’m confident he can help me figure out my issue. Which is regarding an O/U double rifle, most of the info online is regarding S/S double guns.
Trapr
|
|
|
Post by mike454 on Mar 27, 2020 15:46:52 GMT -5
This topic came up, because I recall seeing a short article on how to play with bullet weight, different powders, and velocity. In order to not necessarily regulate a double rifle but to determine what load was used to regulate it. I had thought David had posted something to that affect, but all I could find was his POI changes due to powders and velocity, which quite similar it is not exactly what I was looking for. His info will help but it’s more tuned to pistols, if anyone recalls seeing something regarding specifically double rifles please post it here or message me. I need to find out what load a specific rifle is regulated for, caliber is 9.3x74 and it was proofed pre-WW2. Trapr I wasn't aware that there was a wide variety of loads for that round. I thought pretty much a 286 grain bullet at 2300 something. I would assume it would be regulated for that. How bad is it off with that load? I know I've seen a Ross Seyfried article in the Double Gun Journal about load development for getting doubles to regulate, but it was geared to black powder cartridge doubles.
|
|
|
Post by flyingzebra on Mar 27, 2020 16:12:19 GMT -5
First thing to note.
The SxS double rifle when properly regulated shoots the right and left barrel groups in parallel trajectories. The trajectories do not converge or cross but as they open over distance they do overlap. Next, there are a tremendous number of small bore double rifles which are built for medium game and driven game hunting. These rifles tend to be quite accurate. I know of one Austrian 300WM SxS double rifle that puts R and L barrels into a MOA group out to 300 yards with 200gr softs. I have lusted after that rifle for years, and some day I might own it.
In the build of a fine double rifle the barrels are often bored and cut rifled in house. They are then profiled and checked/corrected for matching taper and wall thickness. So yes, the barrels start out as similar to each other as possible.
The term regulation refers to the build of the rifle. The builder/s will adjust the relationship of the barrels to each other until they shoot properly in a trial/adjust/trial process until the job is done.
Making ammunition for the rifle (later down the road) is an exercise in getting the rifle to shoot to regulation. Some rifles will actually list the load prescription on the rifle itself.
Also, there are rifles with adjustment provisions on the barrels which permit the adjustment of the barrel regulation.
|
|
|
Post by bigbrowndog on Mar 27, 2020 19:33:39 GMT -5
454, you are correct that bullet at that speed is the standard. But the shape of the bullet also comes into play, as does powder burn rates. Since the 9.3 is a medium bore it should be easier to find a load that shoots than a big bore. The biggest issue is that I can’t find info on how to play with burn rates and velocities for an O/U,.....everything is geared towards S/S.
Trapr
|
|
|
Post by flyingzebra on Mar 27, 2020 20:04:16 GMT -5
JJ Perodeau might be able to give you some guidance with the O/U.
(580) 747-1805 jj@jjperodeau.com
|
|